latest Gallop poll: Obama 44% approval rating

>The argument that there are jobs Americans won't do is made quite commonly

Evidence that this is made commonly?

>whether you assert otherwise or not

It's your claim, so it's your assertion.

> but pretending that it isn't an argument consistently used by certain groups is just plain untrue.

Untrue implies truthness, which implies fact, so present your facts. A google search is not fact. I can do a google search of anything and get lots of hits. That doesn't make it a common claim. It makes it something that has a lot of hits.

The *fact* is very few political (as I think this is a political discussion) personalities (office bearing, or otherwise) make the claim you are making. I challenge you to prove otherwise (since its your claim).

BTW the first hit, from Slate, was an utterly worthless article - a) it made no claims, it juts reported info, b) it's reporting was for shit, it left more questions than it answered.

> Tell me the benefit of granting amnesty to these folks.

Taking low paying jobs that no one else will take.

> Even if they get low-paying jobs, they won't make enough to pay federal taxes.

Irrelevant. They will help manufacturing stay in this country. Do you agree keeping manufacturing is important (i'm sure ou think htere's others ways but is it important)???

> Americans will have to pay for their kids to go to school. They will need healthcare, etc., etc

Agreed...hence why there's a desire to make them documented and tax and mandates on the biz.

ryansucks, I'm not sure if you're trolling or being obtuse for the sake of attempting to "win" an argument. I'll try to respond reasonably here.

The google link was merely included to demonstrate the huge number of hits on the topic. You stated the argument was not commonly made and that piece of evidence is a reasonable support for the claim, although I admit it is not scientifically rigorous - that would be difficult to provide for any similar claim.

Surely if it were not a common argument there would not be so many discussions and posts regarding it. (Merely picking one link and pointing out that it's not a perfect article doesn't disprove this; it just shows one can cherry-pick a piece of evidence in an attempt to disprove the rest; poor argumentation at best.)

You can easily to do a search to find this claim made my many "political personalities." Here's just a few.

"And so we did those things as a kid growing up that Americans don't do. We cleaned bathrooms and made beds and swept floors, did laundry, those kinds of things." Former Nev state rep Sharron Angle

"And therefore, it makes sense to allow the good-hearted people who are coming here to do jobs that Americans won't do a legal way to do so." - President George W Bush

"My friends, I'll offer anybody here $50 an hour if you'll go pick lettuce in Yuma this season and pick for whole season. So -- OK? Sign up. OK. When you sign up -- you sign up, and you'll be there for the whole season. The whole season, OK? Not just one day. Because you can't do it, my friend." - John McCain

"If we don't have a temporary worker program, I think it's going to be extraordinarily difficult to ask our Border Patrol agents and our ICE agents to stem the tide that is driven by a huge economic engine of employers looking for people who can work [in jobs that] won't be done by Americans." - Michael Chertoff

If you read my original post I am arguing _against_ this point; I believe jobs will be done if the pay is appropriate. But pretending this isn't a common meme doesn't make it go away, and really seems like arguing for the sake of arguing.

Vermont the main issue is that illegals and temp workers are willing to these jobs for minimum wage and the argument proffered by politicians is that "Americans" won't do these jobs for that low of a wage. I won't say that is the truth, but I find myself in regular contact both in private and in a professional manner with a large and diverse group of people ranging from recent HS grads and recent immigrants, legal and otherwise, to college grads and long time immigrant residents. In general "Americans" do want to do these jobs that are hard and pay little, where as the immigrant is more willing to do the crap job to get a pay check no matter their level of education or experience.

Just on a sociological level I think the idea of hard work has been dropped from the "American" consciousness. Our cultural icons and even our educational institutions propagate the idea that just because you are an "American" you deserve the 50k job and white picket fence no matter how hard you are willing to work. This isn't the case for everyone of course but it is the case for a significantly large portion of our Nation.

"American" in quotes because I am referring mostly to multi-generational Americans typically coming from an average middle class background.

*edit*
"Americans" don't want to do
Pleads for edit button
*/edit*

good read sam.

btw modhat > madhat in tazd.

Sam, I agree. That was my point from the beginning. Americans would do these jobs if the pay weren't minimum-wage (or less.)

However, because we have so many people that ARE willing to do the work for that rate, the rate doesn't rise. Why would it? Simple supply & demand.

Again, like most situations, it is not black and white, and these are generalizations, but I believe them to hold true in general.

Min. wage is a artificial price floor, if removed I think many companies would offer lower wages for some of these jobs. Unemployment is like 10% even if you remove all the illegal workers and estimate that to be around 11 million people and assume that they all held jobs, you now have 11 million jobs open up would how many people of that 10% out of work will step in to flip a burger at 5 dollars an hour?

My assertion would be that more often those willing to step in and flip that burger at the wage the company offers would be of a more recent immigrant background. I have no way to prove it, but in my general course through life I have experienced that the more recent immigrants tend to be more willing to work hard and the people that come from a more established "American" culture. This spans experience in the service, trades and professional sectors.

I know some recent college grads that are bitching about not being able to find work, sure maybe the jobs in the field they studied are tough to find but there are plenty of ditches that still need to be dug. Doing hard work to earn a paycheck will never be a black mark on your resume.

One more anecdote, why do you mostly see Hispanics waiting out side Home Depot to do day labor and not more out of work White folk? The White guy would be the first choice for many people just on natural biases, assuming the person looking to hire is white.