Conservatives also like sidestepping the fact that government programs and laws help dramatically reduce the total number of "useless' people. Before SS, 40 percent of the elderly population lived in poverty; after SS was implemented, the homeless elderly population fell to 10 percent while decreasing unemployment and helping to increase wages for those remaining in the labor market. Medicare ended the problem of the uninsured elderly that nearly bankrupted the entire medical field. Food stamps keep one/eigth of the American population from starvation. Section 8 housing has taken millions off the street, housed them, exited them into the standard housing market and continues to see less than a 23 percent reentry of participants over ten years (as in ten years later, less than a quarter of people on section 8 housing have had to rely on subsidized housing thereafter). ect ect. I could continue to list one government program or law after another that has irrefutably improved the lives of all Americans turning the impoverished into good little consumers while reducing poverty and crime. The reality of the last 100 years of American federal government is that no, the way society functions is not set in stone, and that lifting up people actually improves society significantly.

When the government deviates from this, as it did under Reagan and under Bush Jr. the shit hits the fan hard. I asked the poster quoted what he knew about minimum wage and he never replied so I'll spell it out. The federal minimum wage has had literally no impact on employment. Despite the minimum wage steadily decreasing from its high point in the late 60's, the lower class has continued to lose income while still experiencing comparable employment. The employment group most effected minimum wage increases(teenagers) saw no impact what so ever in terms of employment with the latest increase in the federal minimum wage despite shrill calls that the unemployment problem would go up immediately after (didn't happen...until the market crashed two years later).

Conservative talking points about the role of government in the market place are trash. We've done exactly what conservative market fundamentalism (which you're putting forth) would want to do (shift tax burden downward while steering the best intentions of the market away from the employee and towards the employer while reducing regulation and safety nets) and the US has a broken economy and a bunch of poors to show for it. When you do the exact opposite and make blatant attempts to improve conditions for the lower class, the lower class thrives and turns into the middle class while reducing the total amount of government debt.

fin, thrax,
playing kdice is not working hard btw ;)

so back in the 60s Jane Elliott did this social experiment with her students?..Ill let this link do some of the talking :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCjDxAwfXV0

this was originally going to be used to demonstrate how discrimination in education is bad...but more or less this experiment demonstrates how social constraints and rules can affect and even control a group of people... you'll notice that the students didnt change their emotions/behavior until some authoritative figure intervened...so this really shows how socialism may be needed

you cannot deny there has been institutional racism in this country. This created a system where it's difficult for a group of people to break a mold created by them...

Im not liberal, im green! so dont think all of this is biased. still my problem with your arguments/points is that they're both individualized...both arguments seem weak and not applicable when considering that we are talking about a whole group of people(poor and non-asian minorities).
you cannot deny that society has created a social barrier... the answer may = a lil bit of social-ism, and some other sh**. Much like the social experiment an intervention of some sort has to occur, bc people dont know how to change...

Oh.......we're lowering government debt right now.....I was confused.

And what shit hit the fan with Reagan? The late 80's and 90's saw some of the greatest economic growth in our country's history, and it sure as fuck didn't have anything to do with what Jimmy Carter did before him.

Reagan lowered taxes while INCREASING government revenue. Liberals are typical tax/spend/redistribute/fail...

Only a 25% return rate after TEN years? TEN WHOLE YEARS? Who the hell can't find a cheap apartment in ten years? Is this the measuring stick for success?

Johns, there is plenty of opportunity in this country ESPECIALLY for minorities. I might have agreed with your assertion 20-30 years ago, but I can't condone it today. My son has very few doors open for him unless my wife and I open them for him, and it's a product of the color of HIS skin. African-American society "as a whole" is generally too caught up in hip-hop culture to care about getting ahead in life. That's not a racist comment, it's a general observation. I went to a high school that was only 30% white and about 65% black. It's no coincidence that only 3 of the top 50 students in our class (based on GPA) were black. Those kids weren't getting the help they needed at home. Those kids were being raised by single mothers or grandparents. It's a societal problem I agree, but the changes need to start IN THE COMMUNITY, not in legislation.

Obviously these remarks are generalized and do not apply to everyone, but the proof is in the pudding.

So Thraxle basically what you're doing is disagreeing with me and then making the EXACT FUCKING SAME assertions that I did. What the hell is your point?

The main societal problem that America has is the "American Dream". On an individual level, The American Dream has indoctrinated generations of Americans with the idea that if they work hard and make smart choices, that a comfortable middle class life is within everyone's grasp. If you are born into that comfortable middle class life, go to college and get a middle class job, that idea is reinforced. Until I spent some serious time during college volunteering at homeless shelters and working with foster children, I was in that comfortable middle class bubble as well. I'm unsure at this point whether people who firmly believe in the 'pull yourself up by your own bootstraps' idea collection can ever have their minds *really* changed unless they spend time around legitimate suffering and pain.

However, many of you completely ignore my statements about WHY welfare benefits all of us, and it would be nice if you actually understood what I'm saying. None of you would have your affluent lifestyles without society. You would not be alive or have any money if society did not exist. This is why you pay back some of the money that you gain for others' benefit. It is called the Social Contract, and it is necessary for us to work together. This country's economy is based on consumerism. A RICH PERSON BUYING THEIR THIRD YACHT DOES NOT BENEFIT THE ECONOMY. One hundred poor people buying groceries does.

On top of all this, the hard economic times are bringing to light many of the problems with capitalism. There are not enough jobs for everyone to work. POOR PEOPLE DO NOT SIT THERE AND WAIT FOR A WELFARE CHECK TO ARRIVE. IT IS NOT HUMAN NATURE. So, logically, since there are not enough jobs for everyone to work, there are going to be people unemployed for a long period of time. We NEED to pay to allow these people to buy food and other goods because not only does it allow them to stay alive (instead of dying in the streets like conservatives would love to happen), it advances the economy. Welfare/MedicAid/etc. are called "societal safety nets" for a reason. They are there for when people fall on hard times (which happens a lot more often than a poor person bootstrapping themselves into prosperity) and needs help back on their feet. It is necessary for us as a society to help the poor because if they are given the help they need, they can rise into the middle-class and consume more goods, which advances the economy even more.

For those of you seriously suggesting that we ditch welfare and fuck the poor because they can get a job and just bootstrap their way into a mansion, read this link: http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2006/04/b1579981.html
Seriously. Read that fucking thing and then tell me that the poor "JUST NEED TO GET OFF THEIR ASSES"

"Fuck you, got mine" is an extremely arrogant, inhumane view of the world and it is basically what people like Thraxle are saying.

Seriously Thraxle you literally went from saying "minorities have so many opportunities" to "my relative is black and he's fucked".

Make up your goddamn mind.

Actually I know none of you are going to read that link so I'm just going to copy/paste the important parts:



*
Children from low-income families have only a 1 percent chance of reaching the top 5 percent of the income distribution, versus children of the rich who have about a 22 percent chance.
*
Children born to the middle quintile of parental family income ($42,000 to $54,300) had about the same chance of ending up in a lower quintile than their parents (39.5 percent) as they did of moving to a higher quintile (36.5 percent). Their chances of attaining the top five percentiles of the income distribution were just 1.8 percent.
*
Education, race, health and state of residence are four key channels by which economic status is transmitted from parent to child.
*
African American children who are born in the bottom quartile are nearly twice as likely to remain there as adults than are white children whose parents had identical incomes, and are four times less likely to attain the top quartile.
*
The difference in mobility for blacks and whites persists even after controlling for a host of parental background factors, children’s education and health, as well as whether the household was female-headed or receiving public assistance.
*
After controlling for a host of parental background variables, upward mobility varied by region of origin, and is highest (in percentage terms) for those who grew up in the South Atlantic and East South Central regions, and lowest for those raised in the West South Central and Mountain regions.
*
By international standards, the United States has an unusually low level of intergenerational mobility: our parents’ income is highly predictive of our incomes as adults. Intergenerational mobility in the United States is lower than in France, Germany, Sweden, Canada, Finland, Norway and Denmark. Among high-income countries for which comparable estimates are available, only the United Kingdom had a lower rate of mobility than the United States.

American dream my fucking ass.

the same things are complained about in germany too though...but...how high is ur IQ?

again
another personal observation that you've offered as a truth

thraxle let's say you went to a high school with 3,000 "blacks"...and i know you went to the largest high school in america...so according to your own stats...that's abt right...and hell let's say they all acted exactly alike...and let's say you interacted with each one of them...AND their parents...we'll assume they all have two parents living with them...Thraxle YOU KNEW THEM ALL, just bc of the social butterfly you are:)...so now we're at 9,000 blacks that you've interacted with?...and can we assume that out of those 9000 blacks you know...they all have 4 siblings and you met all of them...so that's 36,000 + 9000 = 45,000 blacks that you know...and They all act exactly alike...and let's say you not only know them...YOU are best friends with them and you know for a fact that they are the worst dirtiest fuckers you've ever met in your whole life...well that's only .1% percent of blacks in america.
trust me when i say that all blacks are not caught up in hip hop culture. your perception is tarnished...tarnished by the media, and the few people that you have met
and i didnt stress this the first time...but the government and society still reinforces social barriers. Even hip hop itself reinforces social barriers. Everything around us reinforces institutional segregation and racism whether we like it or not.
im not blaming any one for it, i believe everyone, including minorities are responsible for making a change...im just saying it'd be nice if the goverment enforced it a lil...by means of socialism