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An Advisor's Reply (to the community)
Posted By: Grunvagr at 8:56 PM, Thursday June 26, 2008 EDT
***This blog concerns Grunvagr's views on the moderating issues in kdice, and what the community can do to help improve things***
First off, I want players to know that we do listen to the community. That's the whole point of having advisors in the first place - having someone to represent you, moderate offensive behavior and upsetting avatars and try to keep this place clean, overall.
Second, there needs to be better definitions of what is to be accepted and what is to be considered unacceptable, both in terms of avatar use / things players can say to others, etc.
Now, the problem arises where people want minor concerns moderated (demanding mutings or bannings of other players for minor offenses).
I want to make sure of one thing. Kdice has always been a relaxed community atmosphere, where players can relax, enjoy the game, chill with friends, joke around and enjoy each other's company. It should remain that way.
Now, that said, there needs to be some sort order to things where players cannot blatantly offend, harrass others, etc. That's where advisors come in.
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Here's the situation, summarized:
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* Certain players in the community want more moderating (more players banned, more mutings, etc)
* Certain players want the opposite, where they feel too much is being moderated and they feel discouraged by advisors for being TOO strict and not letting them enjoy the game and goof around with buddies as they have for many months / years.
That is the fine line and there should be no way we can't appease both groups. The key is simple: define what is acceptable and what is not.
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What needs to be done:
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>>> The best way to quickly change things for the better is the IDEA FORUM <<<
What we need are more things in place that HELP advisors to handle your complaints, look into problems, and address them if they indeed should be handled (by muting / banning, stripping an avatar away, etc)
So the purpose of this blog is to ask the community to help us help you.
For example: If someone cusses you out at a table, right now chat logs are nothing but copied and pasted as proof - something that could be forged easily and thus anyone can blame anyone (so if I'm not at a table and dont see it, just understand that an accusation IS an accusation only, not proof).
What we could and should do as a community is look into ways where we can document infractions easily - that way they can be handled quickly.
So for instance, an idea I can think up of right now that makes sense would be a chatlog saver - an option to save a chatlog in a game and post it later for advisors to review (something that would be saved as a file and thus better than just copy / pasting bad text on the forums - which spam the forums and dont make things look good for the beautiful game in general). Forum posts should be upbeat, or discussing life or the game, not about people cussing / name calling, etc - when that is SUCH A SMALL PART of the community.
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Here's another idea that I formally proposed which already has gotten some support:
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http://kdice.com/ideas/ideas/44761619?
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What can you do?
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Ask not what kdice can do for you, ask what YOU can do for kdice ;)
Think up of good ideas to help moderate and suggest them. Also, compile a list of acceptable or unacceptable behavior or discuss that in a forum post.
_____________________________________________
What's the point??
_____________________________________________
The purpose of this blog is to acknowledge that advisors do listen to the community. But we want players to understand that we don't want to alienate half the community by moderating too severely, nor do we want to ignore people that are harrassed and demand help from us.
Let's discuss and take things from there. A list of acceptable and unacceptable behavior alone (you'd be surprised) is amazingly difficult to make. So lets work together to compile one.
***This is Grunvagr's views on the issue of moderating. If you agree or disagree, take it out on ME***
_____________________________________________
Reply away
First off, I want players to know that we do listen to the community. That's the whole point of having advisors in the first place - having someone to represent you, moderate offensive behavior and upsetting avatars and try to keep this place clean, overall.
Second, there needs to be better definitions of what is to be accepted and what is to be considered unacceptable, both in terms of avatar use / things players can say to others, etc.
Now, the problem arises where people want minor concerns moderated (demanding mutings or bannings of other players for minor offenses).
I want to make sure of one thing. Kdice has always been a relaxed community atmosphere, where players can relax, enjoy the game, chill with friends, joke around and enjoy each other's company. It should remain that way.
Now, that said, there needs to be some sort order to things where players cannot blatantly offend, harrass others, etc. That's where advisors come in.
_____________________________________________
Here's the situation, summarized:
_____________________________________________
* Certain players in the community want more moderating (more players banned, more mutings, etc)
* Certain players want the opposite, where they feel too much is being moderated and they feel discouraged by advisors for being TOO strict and not letting them enjoy the game and goof around with buddies as they have for many months / years.
That is the fine line and there should be no way we can't appease both groups. The key is simple: define what is acceptable and what is not.
_____________________________________________
What needs to be done:
_____________________________________________
>>> The best way to quickly change things for the better is the IDEA FORUM <<<
What we need are more things in place that HELP advisors to handle your complaints, look into problems, and address them if they indeed should be handled (by muting / banning, stripping an avatar away, etc)
So the purpose of this blog is to ask the community to help us help you.
For example: If someone cusses you out at a table, right now chat logs are nothing but copied and pasted as proof - something that could be forged easily and thus anyone can blame anyone (so if I'm not at a table and dont see it, just understand that an accusation IS an accusation only, not proof).
What we could and should do as a community is look into ways where we can document infractions easily - that way they can be handled quickly.
So for instance, an idea I can think up of right now that makes sense would be a chatlog saver - an option to save a chatlog in a game and post it later for advisors to review (something that would be saved as a file and thus better than just copy / pasting bad text on the forums - which spam the forums and dont make things look good for the beautiful game in general). Forum posts should be upbeat, or discussing life or the game, not about people cussing / name calling, etc - when that is SUCH A SMALL PART of the community.
_____________________________________________
Here's another idea that I formally proposed which already has gotten some support:
_____________________________________________
http://kdice.com/ideas/ideas/44761619?
_____________________________________________
What can you do?
_____________________________________________
Ask not what kdice can do for you, ask what YOU can do for kdice ;)
Think up of good ideas to help moderate and suggest them. Also, compile a list of acceptable or unacceptable behavior or discuss that in a forum post.
_____________________________________________
What's the point??
_____________________________________________
The purpose of this blog is to acknowledge that advisors do listen to the community. But we want players to understand that we don't want to alienate half the community by moderating too severely, nor do we want to ignore people that are harrassed and demand help from us.
Let's discuss and take things from there. A list of acceptable and unacceptable behavior alone (you'd be surprised) is amazingly difficult to make. So lets work together to compile one.
***This is Grunvagr's views on the issue of moderating. If you agree or disagree, take it out on ME***
_____________________________________________
Reply away
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rifty wrote
at 4:11 PM, Friday June 27, 2008 EDT Ryan, you take offence to being called mate, while taking such a laissez-faire attitude to some players calling other players nigger?
I need choked on my porridge. |
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rifty wrote
at 4:20 PM, Friday June 27, 2008 EDT ..
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Ryan wrote
at 5:13 PM, Friday June 27, 2008 EDT Rifty, you need to reread my posts. I ban people who use the N word (including you now?)... but I don't expect Grun to. In fact, I think me banning people like this is a little bit too much but It bugs me and I call the shots.
And yes, I find calling people "mate" insulting. It may be cool in your culture but its not in mine. But of course I'm a tolerant person that allows people their own quirks so I don't punch brits and aussies in the face when they address me as "mate". |
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lesplaydices wrote
at 10:47 PM, Friday June 27, 2008 EDT Holy shit do we really need a million fucking topics on moderating when everyone is saying the same fucking thing? Don't ban dudes who are just playing, ban dudes who are being giant cocks. There, discussion over. Now let's never talk about it again.
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leekstep wrote
at 10:58 PM, Friday June 27, 2008 EDT EVERY TIME SOMEONE CHEATS OR IS HATEFUL, DO SOMETHING!
At least give them a warning. This isnt real life, Grun! Everyone here is playing a persona for a variety of purposes. There is no inalienable human right to play kdice. You dont need to convict hatemongers and cheaters beyond a reasonable doubt, and banish them forever. Just every time someone cheats, PGA, team play, offclient IM, hate language, etc. DO SOMETHING!! Give them a warning, ban them for one game, do something anything... The characters in this game arent real people, there is no human harm in letting people know their character is out of bounds. DO SOMETHING EVERY TIME SOMEONE CHEATS! |
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FemmeFatale wrote
at 11:56 PM, Friday June 27, 2008 EDT I like this statement by Ryan "So mods need to use their judgement and think "does someone feel abused? or is this guy just being an idiot for a second".
I think this should be the deciding factor when muting someone. Yeah people can get upset and cuss over a game, but when the chat actually becomes personally abusive I don't think you need to wait for them to do it a certain amount of times before they get muted. |
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Grunvagr wrote
at 12:41 AM, Saturday June 28, 2008 EDT I'm drunk and just got home from seein Pearl Jam :)
For as much as people don't like to be harrassed, I TOO don't like to be harrassed, and it's somewhat ironic that players demanding strict rules and adherence to them are the same ones telling me to fuck off for my values and beliefs. Isn't the act of telling me where to stick it the very same as the intolerant behavior you're describing? It's all relative. We have to be more accepting as a community, that's my stance. I mute avatars if they show pornography not because I don't want to see it, half the time it's rather lovely.. but I do realize that children play on the site and honestly, if you can kdice you have an internet connection to roam elsewhere so it's a no brainer to act. But when a player cusses or insults another, there really is a fine line as to whether or not to intervene - especially when there's no chat log or way to officially tell what was done or said in a game. I think it's very cool that Ryan is coding the advisor history log and implimenting it soon - but that just goes to show how we achieve more when we discuss ideas together and ways to improve the game, rather than yell at advisors for not doing enough - when we have to realize that advisors are NEW, still in their infancy stage, really, and establishing themselves and defining their roles as they go. PS, Garden, played live, is awwwwwwwesome |
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leekstep wrote
at 12:56 AM, Saturday June 28, 2008 EDT I cannot believe what I just read.
Ryan, are you joking or trying to make some transcendental point about guarding against personal offense? I really can't believe you are trying to equate use of the "N" word with the use of "mate". Ryan, Of all of the inconsistent, erratic, inept things that you have done / posted / tolerated in this game... I have to conclude that trying to equate the use of "mate" to the "N" word is the most assinine and ridiculous thing you have done. Anyway you invented the most fun competition ever, and I know you are a good guy, I just think you are WAY out of your league trying to manage the community here. The monthly competition is a joke, and a great portion of the games are uncompetitive jokes. I know it must be extremely difficuklt to manage a fair competition and a fun community, but your lack of clarity regarding rules and appropriate behavior is just horrific and utterly astounding. I hope there was some inside joke or high-minded revelation in your outrageous post, but I really have little confidence that this is true. I think the first step toward achieiving a fair and respectful community is by asking mods to take some action, ANY action, every time they encounter cheating and hate. Maybe a warning or a two minute freeze to the account... I know you hear me I just hope the message will eventually get through. |
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Grunvagr wrote
at 1:15 AM, Saturday June 28, 2008 EDT Frustration with how games are played now or how monthly competitions work has been a longtime issue - that's why Ryan has tested so many various scoring systems. To call him out on it as if he doesn't care is absurd, especially with the notions of tournaments being toyed with already. If games suck lately it's due to the community and the playstyles that many players have adopted and developed- such as flagging WAY early, #1 and #2 trucing early, etc. If anything is to be changed there it has more to do with how players view the game rather than the mechanics OF the game.
And as for his views - it's clear that he does care about the community otherwise he wouldn't step forward to try and clarify his stance on the issue. Claiming at any point that he doesn't care is fruitless - stating that you disagree however, is okay. Basically, we just want the community to be laid back and respectful, able to make jokes and kid without fear of retribution and muting. Moderated accounts /mutings and bannings should be reserved for when players "just don't get it" and continue to overstep the bounds of acceptable behavior (fuzzy definition, sure, but that's why it's so difficult and that's why I posted this blog). Ultimately, a police officer doesn't throw someone in his squad car if someone says the N word - likewise I, personally, do not mute a player for saying a racist word (for one instance). Do I approve of it? Absolutely not. Okay, so as a community, what can you expect TO be moderated (from me)? Well, if someone calls another player(s) a bad word, continues to do so and is flagrant about continuing - THEN a day ban or something is likely - more so for the message delivered than the penalty. This should be common sense to respect your community but it's not, both in kdice and life. It should also be common sense that police officers don't pull everyone over for speeding. Why? because 95% of people drive at least 56mph in a 55 zone. There has to be some leeway - and this leeway is akin to letting someone cuss or say something offensive a few times. It's not what we would like, but it's not worth throwing someone in jail for either. It's when they continue to harrass others that they proverbially speed up to 80+ and are really asking for it. |
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leekstep wrote
at 1:44 AM, Saturday June 28, 2008 EDT You just dont get it at all Grun...
This is a game. I basketball when you hit the elbow of someone attempting to take a shot, the ref will either give you a warning or call a foul. This doesnt mean he puts you in handcuffs and charges you with battery! It just means you are out of bounds, not playing the game the way it should be played. I dont know why you are so freaking hesitant to officiate. Imagine a basketball game where there is collusion, you can go out of bounds and keep the ball, you can foul or travel all you want, you can throw games to help your oppenent make the playoffs, etc. This game would SUCK! Now imagine kdice where you can blatantly PGA, proxy, collude with offclient IMs, trade favors from game to game to help your freinds in the standings, use abusive or racist language... and there were no consequences, no fouls called. Imagine this kdice! It would suck! And that is exactly what we have. I understand that Ryan and Grun cant watch every game. I also understand that a basketball ref wont see every foul. The pertinent point is, to keep any integrity, you need to call a foul when you see it. Dont ban them forever, just do something! Johnson IM in game, do something. JPC4P shared his password. Do Something! DO SOMETHING! |
