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An Advisor's Reply (to the community)
Posted By: Grunvagr at 8:56 PM, Thursday June 26, 2008 EDT
***This blog concerns Grunvagr's views on the moderating issues in kdice, and what the community can do to help improve things***
First off, I want players to know that we do listen to the community. That's the whole point of having advisors in the first place - having someone to represent you, moderate offensive behavior and upsetting avatars and try to keep this place clean, overall.
Second, there needs to be better definitions of what is to be accepted and what is to be considered unacceptable, both in terms of avatar use / things players can say to others, etc.
Now, the problem arises where people want minor concerns moderated (demanding mutings or bannings of other players for minor offenses).
I want to make sure of one thing. Kdice has always been a relaxed community atmosphere, where players can relax, enjoy the game, chill with friends, joke around and enjoy each other's company. It should remain that way.
Now, that said, there needs to be some sort order to things where players cannot blatantly offend, harrass others, etc. That's where advisors come in.
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Here's the situation, summarized:
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* Certain players in the community want more moderating (more players banned, more mutings, etc)
* Certain players want the opposite, where they feel too much is being moderated and they feel discouraged by advisors for being TOO strict and not letting them enjoy the game and goof around with buddies as they have for many months / years.
That is the fine line and there should be no way we can't appease both groups. The key is simple: define what is acceptable and what is not.
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What needs to be done:
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>>> The best way to quickly change things for the better is the IDEA FORUM <<<
What we need are more things in place that HELP advisors to handle your complaints, look into problems, and address them if they indeed should be handled (by muting / banning, stripping an avatar away, etc)
So the purpose of this blog is to ask the community to help us help you.
For example: If someone cusses you out at a table, right now chat logs are nothing but copied and pasted as proof - something that could be forged easily and thus anyone can blame anyone (so if I'm not at a table and dont see it, just understand that an accusation IS an accusation only, not proof).
What we could and should do as a community is look into ways where we can document infractions easily - that way they can be handled quickly.
So for instance, an idea I can think up of right now that makes sense would be a chatlog saver - an option to save a chatlog in a game and post it later for advisors to review (something that would be saved as a file and thus better than just copy / pasting bad text on the forums - which spam the forums and dont make things look good for the beautiful game in general). Forum posts should be upbeat, or discussing life or the game, not about people cussing / name calling, etc - when that is SUCH A SMALL PART of the community.
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Here's another idea that I formally proposed which already has gotten some support:
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http://kdice.com/ideas/ideas/44761619?
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What can you do?
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Ask not what kdice can do for you, ask what YOU can do for kdice ;)
Think up of good ideas to help moderate and suggest them. Also, compile a list of acceptable or unacceptable behavior or discuss that in a forum post.
_____________________________________________
What's the point??
_____________________________________________
The purpose of this blog is to acknowledge that advisors do listen to the community. But we want players to understand that we don't want to alienate half the community by moderating too severely, nor do we want to ignore people that are harrassed and demand help from us.
Let's discuss and take things from there. A list of acceptable and unacceptable behavior alone (you'd be surprised) is amazingly difficult to make. So lets work together to compile one.
***This is Grunvagr's views on the issue of moderating. If you agree or disagree, take it out on ME***
_____________________________________________
Reply away
First off, I want players to know that we do listen to the community. That's the whole point of having advisors in the first place - having someone to represent you, moderate offensive behavior and upsetting avatars and try to keep this place clean, overall.
Second, there needs to be better definitions of what is to be accepted and what is to be considered unacceptable, both in terms of avatar use / things players can say to others, etc.
Now, the problem arises where people want minor concerns moderated (demanding mutings or bannings of other players for minor offenses).
I want to make sure of one thing. Kdice has always been a relaxed community atmosphere, where players can relax, enjoy the game, chill with friends, joke around and enjoy each other's company. It should remain that way.
Now, that said, there needs to be some sort order to things where players cannot blatantly offend, harrass others, etc. That's where advisors come in.
_____________________________________________
Here's the situation, summarized:
_____________________________________________
* Certain players in the community want more moderating (more players banned, more mutings, etc)
* Certain players want the opposite, where they feel too much is being moderated and they feel discouraged by advisors for being TOO strict and not letting them enjoy the game and goof around with buddies as they have for many months / years.
That is the fine line and there should be no way we can't appease both groups. The key is simple: define what is acceptable and what is not.
_____________________________________________
What needs to be done:
_____________________________________________
>>> The best way to quickly change things for the better is the IDEA FORUM <<<
What we need are more things in place that HELP advisors to handle your complaints, look into problems, and address them if they indeed should be handled (by muting / banning, stripping an avatar away, etc)
So the purpose of this blog is to ask the community to help us help you.
For example: If someone cusses you out at a table, right now chat logs are nothing but copied and pasted as proof - something that could be forged easily and thus anyone can blame anyone (so if I'm not at a table and dont see it, just understand that an accusation IS an accusation only, not proof).
What we could and should do as a community is look into ways where we can document infractions easily - that way they can be handled quickly.
So for instance, an idea I can think up of right now that makes sense would be a chatlog saver - an option to save a chatlog in a game and post it later for advisors to review (something that would be saved as a file and thus better than just copy / pasting bad text on the forums - which spam the forums and dont make things look good for the beautiful game in general). Forum posts should be upbeat, or discussing life or the game, not about people cussing / name calling, etc - when that is SUCH A SMALL PART of the community.
_____________________________________________
Here's another idea that I formally proposed which already has gotten some support:
_____________________________________________
http://kdice.com/ideas/ideas/44761619?
_____________________________________________
What can you do?
_____________________________________________
Ask not what kdice can do for you, ask what YOU can do for kdice ;)
Think up of good ideas to help moderate and suggest them. Also, compile a list of acceptable or unacceptable behavior or discuss that in a forum post.
_____________________________________________
What's the point??
_____________________________________________
The purpose of this blog is to acknowledge that advisors do listen to the community. But we want players to understand that we don't want to alienate half the community by moderating too severely, nor do we want to ignore people that are harrassed and demand help from us.
Let's discuss and take things from there. A list of acceptable and unacceptable behavior alone (you'd be surprised) is amazingly difficult to make. So lets work together to compile one.
***This is Grunvagr's views on the issue of moderating. If you agree or disagree, take it out on ME***
_____________________________________________
Reply away
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Bald_Knob wrote
at 10:56 AM, Friday June 27, 2008 EDT Ryan, I really like your tolerance based approach of what you are describing. However I ask you to consider Gruns idea of an adviser log. http://www.kdice.com/ideas/ideas/44761619.
There is growing tension between moderators and regular players. Right now there have been instances where people are banned without being told why. I feel that a log like that with standards (built with flexibility for moderators) would allow players to know what to not do and give the mods and idea what constitutes community standards. As you said these standards would be tolerant. I feel this would end this debate that is going in 6 different threads. Thank You for all the work you put into the game. |
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rifty wrote
at 11:31 AM, Friday June 27, 2008 EDT Ryan, you have just had an ideas thread posted by a player who has been around for months, in which he states "niggers abstain from posting please". He or she was obviously trying to be funny, and I expect it is to complete morons.
But I'll assume you're not a moron so explain how this is not premiditated racism? Explain how this is funny? Explain why you wont ban him? Explain how, if you dont ban him, this wont just give a signal to other fucking idiots to carry on posting the same garbage? |
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Ryan wrote
at 11:46 AM, Friday June 27, 2008 EDT Rifty, they do it to make you upset, they don't think it's funny, they think you're reaction is funny. You're kinda feeding them.
With that said, I usually spend time getting idiots like this off the site. But you have to realize that this is the internet and it will never be clean of idiots hiding behind anonymity. This is a public site and we have to accept that some % of the population here are morons. After banning them, new ones come, and you shouldn't get upset because new morons come because its inevitable. What are you going to do when you hear someone say this crap on the street? Call 911? I don't think so, you make kick their ass.... so do the same here. You're also not adding anything new to the community by complaining about the mods. The mods volunteer their time to make this a better place. Give them a break. On the topic of the moderator log, I plan to have that running by July 1. |
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skrumgaer wrote
at 12:44 PM, Friday June 27, 2008 EDT Let's look at the definition of racism. The following quote is excerpted from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism: "While the term racism usually denotes race-based prejudice, violence, discrimination, or oppression, the term can also have varying and hotly contested definitions. Racialism is a related term, sometimes intended to avoid these negative meanings. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, racism is a belief or ideology that all members of each racial group possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another racial group or racial groups. The Merriam-Webster's Dictionary defines racism as a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular racial group, and that it is also the prejudice based on such a belief. The Macquarie Dictionary defines racism as: "the belief that human races have distinctive characteristics which determine their respective cultures, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule or dominate others."[citation needed]" All of these definitions involve or start with belief. So I propose the following question: Should each kdicer, as a condition of logging onto kdice, agree to a statement that says that he or she does not have racist beliefs? If the answer is "yes", then a kdicer's actions can be judged to see whether it is inconsistent with the kdicer's not having racist beliefs. If the answer is "no", a different standard will have to be used, other than the kdicer merely expressing a racist belief, to judge a kdicer's action. |
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rifty wrote
at 1:03 PM, Friday June 27, 2008 EDT Ryan,
They might think its funny, but its you thats feeding them, not me. Its the sort of humour thats got an analogy similar to poking a stick at a monkey. Some morons think its funny to see the monkey squeal. By not banning them, you are giving them the stick, mate. Do you think BBC forums have a problem with racist language, and their forums are massive with hundreds of thousands more contributors than yours. Well, they dont have any problem at all. And do you know why? Its just not tolerated. ps...thanks for replying. |
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Ryan wrote
at 1:42 PM, Friday June 27, 2008 EDT The BBC eh? Those are some pretty high standards. The BBC actually tries pretty hard to maintain it's image as a reputable news source. When kdice is funded by the BBC you can expect higher standards. Honestly I don't think many here wants KDice to be as stiff as the BBC. Also, many cultures play here and to impose british culture wouldn't be appropriate either.
Look, I already said I don't like white guys using the N word. I think it makes them look like idiots. But I don't ban these guys because they're racist. I ban them because they're childish and attention seeking and not the type of person I want in the community. You'll have to trust my opinion complemented by the advisors as to who we don't want in the community. If Grun doesn't think a guy like this crosses the line then thats ok. I think its ok to have advisors with different opinions. Do you really care if a guy you're playing is a bit racist? Would you rather have people like this sheltered from you than learn to deal with them? People you play should be aloud to have their own prejudices, its should be more of a negative trait for them than an annoyance for you. Maybe they use the N word, or treat women poorly with the C word, or men with the D word - they shouldn't really be banned unless they're directly and consistently harassing you or others. |
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Ryan wrote
at 1:43 PM, Friday June 27, 2008 EDT Oh by the way, I take offense to being called "mate". Please don't call me that or boy, bro, dude, etc.
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Bahaduras wrote
at 2:13 PM, Friday June 27, 2008 EDT While I am not a "Grun is God proponent." (only because I never got to know him) I do believe his advisor log is a good compromise solution.
And I think Ryan, when items are brought to his attention, will usually do as much as he can to correct the problem. Its really good that all these people keep making it clear how upset they are: At least 10 threads in the last week about it. But its also good to see that Grun and Ryan are acknowledging that it is an issue and participating in the rather vibrant debate about it. One hopes that a good dialog will eventually lead to resolution. Sorry for the repost. -- Mikeypoo -Mikeypoo |
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manbearpig wrote
at 2:45 PM, Friday June 27, 2008 EDT I think a lot of "unacceptable behavior", be it any definition you like, could be discouraged by having a little window pop up upon signing UP that says "kdice is a friendly community, try to be cool with everybody, don't be a dick, etc" or something along those lines (obviously the owrd dick won't be in there, I just used to word as an example). This was players may (or may not) be more inclined to be friendly rather than mean or whatever, knowing that their actions affect the community as a whole.
This is simple and easy, give it a shot if you want. |
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manbearpig wrote
at 2:46 PM, Friday June 27, 2008 EDT sd
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