"Thrax, although it would be ignorant of me to say they didnt in the past. The vatican does not get rich off of tithing, nor has it for mor than 200 years."

At this point, tithing is a minor source of the Catholic Church's wealth. See this:
http://www.chick.com/reading/books/153/153_10.asp

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=68927



I will admit though that the Catholic church did go through a pretty corrupt period."

Yeah, like pretty much all of the last 1000 years, up to the 21st century.

http://www.onlinejournal.com/TheocracyAlert/html/092705seesholtz.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7337748.stm


http://ezinearticles.com/?Corruption-Of-The-Church-In-The-Middle-Ages&id=969734



Seems like old habits die hard for the most corrupt political institution the world has ever known.

lol at using a rumor mill article with quotes but no works cited as "proof"

as for your next 2 articles, the first one is a repeat of the Salem witch trials, your condemming a church comprised of several hundred million people based on the actions of less then a dozen of its members, and then assuming that the rest of the clergy knew it was happening. the 3rd one mentions the Catholic church and puts it in the same sentance as Nazi in the tittle. However if you read the article and think about what it actually says, then think about what the nazis stood for, then think about what Chrisiandom stands for, i think you can pretty well figure out that there was nothing underhanded or currupt going on in the church on that account.

and well your last article refers to the time period that i am talking about.

OK, so get off the money part of it and talk about "heaven".

Explain my example......I always enjoy the disscussion that follows when I bring this up.

Thrax: see http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/atheism
This link leads to common questions about the church's views about atheism and agnosticism. Pertinent responses to your question (about being an atheist and heaven) basically say that because you do not believe in God, this lack of belief is not a grave sin, so you are not to blame. If you still lead a moral life, you can still go to heaven.

i must have missed that post/ part

and chloe you are really on top of things

I'm procrastinating on chem prelab work.
&I've often used catholic.com as a resource. Thrax's post is a couple pages back, his first contribution I think. He juxtaposed a person who leads a good life but does not believe in God to a murderer who repents.

it was the 4th part of his soliloquy a few pages back.

i disagree with catholics if they take a hard stance that you can get to heaven by having good morals if you had never heard the gospel. my belief (which could very well be offbase) is that God is the judge as to who gets in heaven and who doesnt. and he never really states anywhere in the bible anything about people who didnt hear the gospel. well, come to think of it, the only time i can think of that the bible mentions people who have never heard the gospel, it uses them as an inspiration to share the gospel more and get it to them asap.

the most poignant time that the qualifications of getting to heaven are mentioned is when jesus says, 'i am the way, the truth, and the life. no man may come to the father but by me.' which, as thrax stated, is rather exclusive.

and theres the whole story about the thief on the cross, who repents on his deathbed after a life of crime, and jesus tells him that he will see him in paradise. so, again, thrax is correct.

i believe its cs lewis who flips the question, 'why do bad things happen to good people?' into 'why do good things happen to bad people?' the idea being that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (thats a bible quote, sorry for the oldish english). and the sorta-gay-figurative-way-to-explain-the-situation is you explain heaven as where God is, and in order to be with God, you MUST be perfect.

so you bring a retarded midget (i thought i might as well offend everyone) to the edge of the grand canyon, and the question is, can he jump over it? well, duh, ofc not. then you bring carl lewis (this shows how old i am) to the same spot, and he is way more qualified than the midget. but duh ofc he cant jump across it either.

point being that its impossible to work your way to heaven no matter how good or pious you are. because heaven demands perfection. the whole, God is holy, and cannot have anything unholy around him thing (which is also somewhere in the bible but im too lazy to search the internet).

the only way to get to heaven is to admit you arent perfect, and believe that Jesus was perfect, and paid your way for you. its a binary system really (even though binary isnt real math, duh, obv). either you are perfect or you are a sinner. and the wages of sin is death. so you either are hellbound or heavenbound. except the bible says we are all hellbound. unless we clothe ourselves in Christ's righteousness. omg, this sounds so surreally stupid, i know.

sorry, im not going to recheck everything i typed, and make it all pretty and logical. its late, and i need to sleep.