First of all, thank you for addressing this problem Ryan. I know that I, personally, have played very VERY few tables above 500 for this very reason. Count me in on any efforts to make the higher tables more about skill and less about favors. I know that just watching 2.5K games generally make me sick because of all the things that go on.

As to what, i believe it was Johnson, was talking about (with the whole thing about being more likely to favor people you see more). I feel like this is part of the problem. I certainly understand where you are coming from and I even did it myself a lot.... but the problem is, sticking with the 500 tables got me talking to a lot of the 500 table crowd. Despite popular belief, they aren't idiots that can't handle the advanced technique of the game. Most of them happen to notice that if they aren't known in the 2.5K games then they lose. Period. Why? because people haven't seen them. And that sucks and isn't right.

As to the judging idea jurg... i definitely like where it's going. My main concern is that judges might have people that they don't like.... which could lead to some issues. Perhaps if the players were anonymous to the judges? I'm not sure how to fix this potential problem

I disagree you only lose in 2k if you suck at kdice period

"2) anonymize tourneys (from willy and lots of other people ive talked to over the past couple days... mostly newer players actually). this would sadly require more coding, and Ryan has already coded a shitload recently. "


This would not help at all. You skilless noobs (yes I am talking to people who need PGA's and PTA's in order to win)would just use IM services to identify each other and keep throwing in those PTA's (pre tournament alliance)

Let me get this straight, Ryan, are you recruiting volunteers for a witch hunting? Lovely. I get fun playing and I get fun chatting in the peanuts gallery. From now on games will be some kind of hostile hell and the peanuts gallery the place where some people (with not so clear intentions) judges the players.

Again, where should we draw the line? Attacking a flagged player to give your friend an undeserved place is lame and should be punished, but attacking a flagged player to reward your ally in a game is legit, in my humble opinion. I don't know what happened yesterday with CoMik and jpc4p, but I doubt it was the first situation, they are smart enough to avoid it.

I'm reading here about forgetting previous games when you sit at a table. WHY? Is it the best strategy? For example, leekstep is a cheater, he has confessed about PGAing, proxying and "flagfesting" (he even cheated the cheaters, for the love of God), should I trust him when he offers me a truce? Should I trust him more than I trust Orlafede (always a good ally when you truce him, never backstabbing or revolving)? If trustworthiness or “niceness” is not going to count anymore, what's the point on being trustworthy or nice?

I'll keep playing the way I always do, I'll keep being more likely to truce trustworthy players. If I can, I'll keep doing silent truces (facts speak louder than words), because they are smarter than explicit truces in the chat (I'm not talking about PGA, I'm talking abut trucing with a move instead of writing "truce?" in the chat).

To everyone: PLAY TO WIN, don't keep lurking at the table expecting to be 5th instead of 7th. Flag 7th and play again, the rewarding for a 1st is bigger than the punishment for a 7th. Many of these polemics come from the fact that people refuses to flag.

To people who cheat/proxy: It's only a game, why do you need the points?

Summarizing: I will help against cheaters, but I extremely disgree with "Things need to change at the top tables".

Cheers

nuf

you're sitting at the table with someone you know and like. you can go east and screw them or go west and screw somebody you don't know.
which way will you go?

the answer to this is pretty obvious, and some research says hardwired into our brains.

so lets get a sense of proportion here.
talking on aim and setting who wins - bad.
letting your friend hide behind you with one land so they can get a better position - bad.
being nice to someone you like over someone you don't know - natural.


i'd also like to go on the record saying this whole "understanding the value of your points" new age bullshit is just, well, new age bullshit.
you want to change the culture of the game and make it more fair? more power to you. i applaud your efforts.
but arbitrarily canceling a tourney is not exactly "fair" or good administrative "culture". not refunding points after arbitrarily canceling a tourney is even less fair.
what exactly are you punishing the people who never even sat at the same table with the cheater for?

And once again, Ryan wants to go against human nature here. There is no way you can stop people . Sure you can appoint volunteer mods, but they too have their own personal biases. Do you really think anyone can be fair every time he is to punish someone for "playing nice" strategy?
And the thing with 500 players too scared to play 2k and 5k tables, well... what probably happened to them is they've heard stories about "elite" players having 2 PGA's/table, eventually played 1 game there, got 7th because of the bad start or bad rolls and never came back again. Whose fault is that?

Also, Ryan, (i don't know if you are ignoring me) you CAN do something about tourneys.

1) Friday Fives are useless, you have enough Freerolls and 100 buy-in tourneys already.

2) There is currently 2 member-only 500 tourneys per day, make one of them open for non-members.

Um...

There is no way you can stop people from trading favors or favoring friends.*

...so here I am writing instead of playing again.

about moderating

First of all I want to thank everyone who brought my name up for possible Moderators for their trust in my abilities or whatever made them bring up my name.
For my part i don't remember lining up for the post but i don't mind helping contribute the community in a way i can.

What is change?

Which leads me directly to the fact that i don't get what Ryan specifically wants to be enforced from good players.
As far as I understand you Ryan you don't want to try another attempt on solving social problems with technical matters (which as we know never actually works out).
So we face it: We all agree kdice is a social game and its meant to be. If it weren't most of us wouldn't be playing this and i wouldn't have gotten to know a lot of nice people. (AMO, a proud father and Argentinian with a gorgeous wife, Lindsay a nice american woman living in Atlanta, Mona who is not ashamed to show their proud little children on her account, Hatty an elder German old enough to be my father, Cody, Hart, Kehoe to name only a few)
And everyone of them have their own mindset, very various ones.
And I hope i get Ryan right he's not complaining about the social and unconsciousness part of this.
The examples of this are pretty well laid out in montes own thread about the matter so I can suppres my urge to repeat them.

So it comes down to:

What are Favors? Or the Fav play style, honestly i got no clear idea of what is meant by this and since i haven't been in the top100 the last months i don't consider myself a top player anymore, though i know I'm well known and regarded kind of "oldschool".
So Ryan if you are willing to draw a line and say "OK here we are. I don't mind _that_, but I certainly don't want to see _this_ in my game and I need you to help it." I'm willing and confident to make a difference.

People talked a lot about moderator powers in this thread and I'm personally not entirely sure if that is what Ryan had in mind when proposing this, to me it sounded more like Ryan wants _every single one_ of us to be aware to play decent and not lame.
Well there we go.

I face a Dilemma. Whenever I see a situation like this, I know i don't want to get involved, so i don't. I can't actively correct the wrongs of others theres no court i can appeal to. I don't know if I even want such an instance. So what do you want us to do Ryan? because i know no tool helping me in this effort and whats worse I so far gain nothing out actively enforcing your policy without knowing you behind me.

I'm with Ryan as far as i can tell, but I'm certainly not willing to fight a fight I don't know the cause and I'm not mentioning the winning conditions. And I'm not willing to go into a fight I don't have to.

So please Ryan enlighten us.

just my 2 cents.

MW

Also flattered that my name is mentioend, but I don't think it's right to give me any technical powers, ie assigning people timeouts and etc. That just opens itself to way too much abuse (see fiero episode). I definitely don't want to be given those type of privileges.

Perhaps just a council of a few players that you think are generally fair and can navigate the top tables who observe most of the games. Identify who they are to the top players and let them self police. So they can pull a few players aside that the mods think are out of line and give them a verbal warning that they're playing unfair. If those players continue to act in such a way then unanimous consent between the council would be needed and submitted to Ryan for any technical action.

Arbitrary docking of points and timeouts and etc only cause chaos and mob mentality.

I'm surprised how a lot of responders don't get it.

ADDING NEW CONSTRAINTS, STRUCTURE, MODS, RULES, POINT SYSTEMS WILL NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM. It may only solve the problem for newer players. The problem is in the culture of the top players.

This is not a witch hunt. This is about respecting the game. Either you do or don't. If you do you'll call out unfair play and look down upon it. You may even decide to play against people like this. The problem now is that top players are being lazy and letting this type of play happen. The top players who believe in the integrity of the competition should protect it. It's not like there are thousands of players that need to be controlled. I don't believe over policing creates a good culture. I believe freedom, trust, and good values does. There are only 50 of you. Get some integrity and manage your culture or you're going to keep getting frustrated by my enforcement and point deductions.

Long story short: Stop redirecting the problem back at me and recognize the problem in yourself. Seriously.