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Everything You Wanted To Know About 10k And PGAs But Were Afraid to Ask
JeremyS wrote
at 11:42 AM, Friday February 1, 2008 EST
Having played extensively at the top tables for the last couple of months, I have noticed certain trends that I find alternately amusing and aggravating.

As I've grown familiar with the game and the top players, I have come to realize that, much like life, relationships between kdice players are not simple black and white dileanations; they cannot be divided into simple groups and teams. Rather, the interaction between players is a complex structure like that of a web or a tapestry, with different connections between every player, and the tangled skein can lead to some interesting results.

One of the most amusing things I see (and it happens fairly often) is watching two players who dislike each other have to defend themselves against a PGA accusation from a third party.

Here's a piece of advice:

It's not a PGA, it's a personality type.

What do I mean? Well, the answer to the question is a bit complicated, but if you bear with me I will start to make sense (I hope).

Success at kdice is heavily steeped in an understanding of game theory, whether it's something that you've specifically studied or just "intuited" over the years. I want to quote one specific sentence from a wikipedia article on a subset of game theory:

"As in all game theory, the only concern of each individual player is maximizing his/her own payoff, without any concern for the other player's payoff."

(You may be thinking "Wait, I cooperate with people for favors later." I'll get to that.)

Let us pretend for the moment that there was no chatbox in kdice, and no way to even see who it was you were playing against. It would be impossible to communicate with other players, and given equal levels of skill, you would win 1/7th of your games.

Let's pretend further, for a moment, that instead of 13 starting dice you were given 20 (or four five-stack territories) while everyone else still had 13. How many games would you win? Yeah, a lot.

Now, let's forget about you having additional dice, and go back to our simpler version of kdice, but add in the chatbox, giving you the ability to work with other players. In this theoretical version, while you can talk to players, you can't figure out who they are from game to game.

Given that everyone has equal starting resources, working together with another player applies twice as many resources (and turns!) to the team. Although the reward has to be divided in half, you as a team would win far more than twice as many games with the additional resources that you bring to bear, so your point reward for any given game would go up significantly by cooperating between players.

Therefore, it would make sense under this system for players who want to maximize their points to truce. Ignore what you think is or is not "lame", we're talking strictly about mathematical advantage here.

So, given that trucing in kdice is a winning strategy, it is natural that the players who wind up at the top have a tendency to truce.

Now, let's add back in knowing who other players are, and bring ourselves to the current version of kdice. It's possible not only to chat with and truce with other players, the community (especially near the top) is small enough that the same players see each other again and again.

That turns the decision making process in kdice into a sort of never-ending *iterated prisoner's dilemna*. The full article is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma#The_iterated_prisoner.27s_dilemma , but I will sum up simply:

Pretend you're playing rock, paper, scissors. If you play against someone once and only one, it's pretty much a crap shoot. But now imagine that you played the same player hundreds of times. You might notice that they have a tendency to choose rock, so you might start picking paper a lot. Then she might notice you're picking paper, and she'd switch to scissors. It goes on and on, and after enough iterations you might have a complex strategy indeed of figuring out what your opponent was going to do. Different algorithms have been created that can actually pretty effectively school real players in RPS and other, similar, games.

The same thing happens in kdice with players you see again and again. You being to have certain expectations about what might happen if you're in a game with certain players, and it affects your decision making process. To illustrate my point, I will give you an example based on two specific players I see plenty of: montecarlo and MadHat_Sam.

Monte is a trucer. He truces early and often, and is reliable when he truces. He tends to play conservatively but heartlessly. My experience with him has always been that he can be relied on as a teammate. When I play games with monte I tend to be pretty vocal and will often truce with him. I also make aggressive plays on the board against other players when he is my neighbor, because he has a tendency not to stick his neck out, especially over the middle of the board.

Sam is also a trucer, although he has a tendency to truce later on in games. He plays very aggressively at times, and doesn't finish in the middle of the pack very much. Sam and I got off to a bad start when I came to the 1k tables, and we have a tendency to fight each other, although with both of us it is mitigated by a preference to win rather than exact revenge, so we do sometimes truce, although it is not as frequent for either of us as it is with other players.

I could go on and on. lastmurti is unpredictable, nexon is retaliatory, etc.

So where am I going with this?

I freely admit to being a big time trucer. It's a winning, proven strategy. And I will truce with anyone. When I make the decision to truce, it's based on a lot of factors, and as the game is on a clock it's often a split second decision. When you're making fast decisions, you tend to rely on a lot of subconscious variables.

Let's take a couple of hypothetical scenarios. Remember, I am making the decision to maximize my given points in a situation.

Scenario 1:

I have two neighbors, montecarlo who is weak and an unknown player who is strong, but not overwhelmingly strong. I will likely attack montecarlo.

Scenario 2:

I have two neighbors, montecarlo who is weak and an unknown player who is weak. I will likely attack the unknown player. Why? Because I've run 300 iterations of the prisoner's diliemma with monte, and I know that he is a player who rewards cooperation. It's not that I dislike the unknown player, or that I like monte in particular.

There are a million variations, but when you add them all up, I am *more likely* to truce with players I know. What does this lead to? Well, I'm hardly the only one who is making these kinds of decisions, *Every* player makes these decisions. A simple way of saying this is "I know who I can trust, and who I can't."

Essentially, the player who truces, and who makes a habit of studying other players to know who to trust and who not to trust, will trend towards the elite section of the game. This behavior tends to reinforce itself, as with lots of trucing going on, *not* trucing becomes an even worse technique, and tends to hurt people.

So, what does this mean to "aspiring" 10k players?

A few important things...

First, trucing is a fact of life at 10k. Get used to it, and get good at it.

Second, you probably didn't get PGAed. What FAR more likely happened was that, when it got down to 4 or 5 players, it was a bunch of people who knew each other, and you. Those players don't dislike you, and they didn't arrange anything in advance. Instead they are making decisions designed to maximize their return on the game, and you are an unknown variable to them.

So how do you overcome this?

First, don't get discouraged. It's NOT an old boys club, it's a bunch of individual players making decisions that tend to hurt unknown players on the board. What you need to do is keep coming back, and make yourself known.

I know that my personal experience at 1k was that I got my butt kicked when I first got there. But eventually as I got some good starts and truced with people from a position of advantage, people began to recognize me and remember that it was safe to team with me, and I've never looked back.

Second, you *HAVE* to chat, talk, and negotiate. If people don't know you, they are not likely to reach out to you. I can't count the number of times I've watched a board conversation play out, and the new guy who didn't say anything suddenly screams PGA when he gets attacked after it all got spelled out on the board.

Really anyone who wants to can succed at 10k by learning to negotiate, and by always honoring your truces.

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JeremyS wrote
at 6:10 PM, Friday February 1, 2008 EST
It's quite different from a PGA guys. In a PGA situation, you have a *premeditated* alliance in place before the game even starts.

In the meta-situation we're discussing, it's about the factors that influence a mid-game decision.

In addition, it's not something that goes unspoken, although it can be. Generally it's the sort of thing that plays out in the chat box. People have a tendency to offer alliances they know will be accepted and trustworthy.

However, unspoken truces occur all the time, and the breaking of said unspoken truces is one of the greatest forms of hilarity kdice has to offer (unless you're the guy who's in the process of getting boned by the guy he thought he was working with). You can think of unspoken truces as leaving your neighbor alone and hoping he reciprocates. One of the earliest refinements I had to make when I moved to 1k tables was to learn that if my neighbor has two attack choices to make and goes after the other guy, it might be a good idea to NOT attack him right at that moment, because he might get highly pissed.

In addition, you have to factor in the negative consequences of aligning yourself with people you don't know. If they turn out to bust your chops, you may never be able to exact revenge, and therefore your long term payoff for the alliance seems even bleaker.

Another thing that we haven't taken into account is the PGE effect. Plenty of high end players don't get along, and they can have a tendency to seriously influence things in the meta sense.

For example, if I found myself on a board with monte, lastmurti, player X, and myself, I know that monte and murti are PGE and trend towards fighting. In that situation, player X is in a great situation even if he doesn't know it, and I will try to stall and do a little corner munching while monte and murti fight, and hope that player X sees the sense of trucing as the other guys weaken each other.

Finally, in most 10k games, the table is mostly filled with people who know each other. So, if I'm in a game with monte and four other players I know, the odds of me trucing with monte are actually pretty low overall, and crucially, when the game starts, I'm not thinking of something like "How can I maneuver myself into a truce with this guy?" I'm doing the normal early stuff, trying to consolidate a position that discourages attacks, and that may or may not lead to me offering a truce to a strong neighbor.

There are two key things to understand here in the end:

1. If I find myself in a situation with any other player that I know will keep a truce and monte, I am equally likely to go with the other player. I just held up monte as an example of someone who I know keeps alliances.

2. The likelihood of me trucing with monte in a given opportunity situation isn't 100%, or even 80%. It's probably more like 53%. We're not talking about a decision I always make, we're talking about a tendency that plays itself out gradually over a long period of games.
leekstep wrote
at 8:21 PM, Friday February 1, 2008 EST
Jeremy I saw you play eight games with monte in the last few days, and you cooperated in all eight games. The ninth game monte truced with someone else and you were forced to counter, but then you flagged early for third.

You are arguing the semantics and motivations of your PGAs, but in fact any decision to assist Monte that isnt related to the map position or chat during the game- THIS BIAS IS PGA.

I respect your game Jeremy and you harbor less bias than most players at the high tables. You should be commended for that.
franz ferdinand wrote
at 8:48 PM, Friday February 1, 2008 EST
i got to 50k last month. trucing only a couple of times. i dont like trucing. i would play the game if it were no chatbox/no names..but still ranked. it was hard but it proves it can be done. i would say any higher than about 30th and you need to be a trucer.
kdicefreak wrote
at 9:09 PM, Friday February 1, 2008 EST
i am sorry but i have to say it sounds more and more like an excuse to PGA.
JeremyS wrote
at 1:21 AM, Saturday February 2, 2008 EST
Funny leek, you never criticized me until the moment that I called you the biggest hypocrite kdice has ever seen.

Just don't even bother talking to me.
Cal Ripken wrote
at 1:33 AM, Saturday February 2, 2008 EST
I don't see how this sounds like a PGA excuse. Jeremy is vocalizing his own approach to playing with the top-score players and it's a good one. Realizing how most players react to things (trucing, moving the other direction when they attack away from you, attacking a common foe without offering a truce, etc...) is a useful part of this game.
By using the techniques Jeremy is talking about, you are benefiting your play by knowing the common reactions of opponents to your reaction. This, like what Jeremy explained with the gametheory reference, will help you achieve the maximum possible score.
No where is there any need, reference, or description of PGA- that is, nonspoken pregame alliances.
If I play a game with Jeremy (or leekstep or monte or anyone I'm familiar with) and I know that if he attacks a neighbor and I attack someone besides him- he will probably continue to attack his target and leave me alone, that in no way is a PGA or cheating or whatever. It is simply a benefit of experience. Even if this idea is "unfair" to newer players, then that's to be expected, as they are new and don't know the full extent of kdice strategy. I'm sorry if this is a disadvantage to new players- but they are new and inexperience, obviously they will be disadvantaged.
_\o_ wrote
at 1:40 AM, Saturday February 2, 2008 EST
still r2d2, if you don't make your intentions clear in chat, then it is PGA(Ryan and kdicefreak agree)

So to attack a common foe without letting the table know what you are thinking is wrong. Likewise if someone attacks away from you and leaves themselves exposed, you should either rip them a new one or announce the PGA in chat.
Awesomeness! wrote
at 3:54 AM, Monday February 4, 2008 EST
couple things to add from me

@jez
GREAT post...good read!

u get my vote for blog entrant, u style of writing makes me read ur posts although they never seem to end lol.

@franz
i too hit around 50k WITHOUT PGA'ing and trucing only if it benefitted (is that a word? lol) me!

the beauty of my month is that i only broke 10k on the 28th and 50k+ got me 37th...

i believe that top 25 IS DEFINATELY attainable there for the players that don't 'cheat'

@kdicefreak
dude, we've had out differences i know, but that was cos u hijack posts...this time, u havent...kept on topic and i thank u for that.

but top 25 does not = kissing asses! i made 37th and although not top 25, a decent finish and i DID NOT KISS ASS nor did franz who, i mentioned b4!

jurgen wrote
at 7:05 AM, Monday February 4, 2008 EST
a lot of excellent posts here (btw this compliment does not count as msak)

This thread should be a sticky post. The new players that want to try their luck at 10k should absolutely read this post and watch at least 10 10k games before they even consider sitting.

Bottom line: yes it will be tough but in the end if you're good you will win points at 10k; if you are bad or don't have enough social strategy it will be extremely likely that you will be disappointed with your big losses.
Eiskrem-Kaiser wrote
at 7:57 AM, Monday February 4, 2008 EST
tl;dr

Nah, seriously, good text! Hits it about perfectly.
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