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Everything You Wanted To Know About 10k And PGAs But Were Afraid to Ask
JeremyS wrote
at 11:42 AM, Friday February 1, 2008 EST
Having played extensively at the top tables for the last couple of months, I have noticed certain trends that I find alternately amusing and aggravating.

As I've grown familiar with the game and the top players, I have come to realize that, much like life, relationships between kdice players are not simple black and white dileanations; they cannot be divided into simple groups and teams. Rather, the interaction between players is a complex structure like that of a web or a tapestry, with different connections between every player, and the tangled skein can lead to some interesting results.

One of the most amusing things I see (and it happens fairly often) is watching two players who dislike each other have to defend themselves against a PGA accusation from a third party.

Here's a piece of advice:

It's not a PGA, it's a personality type.

What do I mean? Well, the answer to the question is a bit complicated, but if you bear with me I will start to make sense (I hope).

Success at kdice is heavily steeped in an understanding of game theory, whether it's something that you've specifically studied or just "intuited" over the years. I want to quote one specific sentence from a wikipedia article on a subset of game theory:

"As in all game theory, the only concern of each individual player is maximizing his/her own payoff, without any concern for the other player's payoff."

(You may be thinking "Wait, I cooperate with people for favors later." I'll get to that.)

Let us pretend for the moment that there was no chatbox in kdice, and no way to even see who it was you were playing against. It would be impossible to communicate with other players, and given equal levels of skill, you would win 1/7th of your games.

Let's pretend further, for a moment, that instead of 13 starting dice you were given 20 (or four five-stack territories) while everyone else still had 13. How many games would you win? Yeah, a lot.

Now, let's forget about you having additional dice, and go back to our simpler version of kdice, but add in the chatbox, giving you the ability to work with other players. In this theoretical version, while you can talk to players, you can't figure out who they are from game to game.

Given that everyone has equal starting resources, working together with another player applies twice as many resources (and turns!) to the team. Although the reward has to be divided in half, you as a team would win far more than twice as many games with the additional resources that you bring to bear, so your point reward for any given game would go up significantly by cooperating between players.

Therefore, it would make sense under this system for players who want to maximize their points to truce. Ignore what you think is or is not "lame", we're talking strictly about mathematical advantage here.

So, given that trucing in kdice is a winning strategy, it is natural that the players who wind up at the top have a tendency to truce.

Now, let's add back in knowing who other players are, and bring ourselves to the current version of kdice. It's possible not only to chat with and truce with other players, the community (especially near the top) is small enough that the same players see each other again and again.

That turns the decision making process in kdice into a sort of never-ending *iterated prisoner's dilemna*. The full article is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma#The_iterated_prisoner.27s_dilemma , but I will sum up simply:

Pretend you're playing rock, paper, scissors. If you play against someone once and only one, it's pretty much a crap shoot. But now imagine that you played the same player hundreds of times. You might notice that they have a tendency to choose rock, so you might start picking paper a lot. Then she might notice you're picking paper, and she'd switch to scissors. It goes on and on, and after enough iterations you might have a complex strategy indeed of figuring out what your opponent was going to do. Different algorithms have been created that can actually pretty effectively school real players in RPS and other, similar, games.

The same thing happens in kdice with players you see again and again. You being to have certain expectations about what might happen if you're in a game with certain players, and it affects your decision making process. To illustrate my point, I will give you an example based on two specific players I see plenty of: montecarlo and MadHat_Sam.

Monte is a trucer. He truces early and often, and is reliable when he truces. He tends to play conservatively but heartlessly. My experience with him has always been that he can be relied on as a teammate. When I play games with monte I tend to be pretty vocal and will often truce with him. I also make aggressive plays on the board against other players when he is my neighbor, because he has a tendency not to stick his neck out, especially over the middle of the board.

Sam is also a trucer, although he has a tendency to truce later on in games. He plays very aggressively at times, and doesn't finish in the middle of the pack very much. Sam and I got off to a bad start when I came to the 1k tables, and we have a tendency to fight each other, although with both of us it is mitigated by a preference to win rather than exact revenge, so we do sometimes truce, although it is not as frequent for either of us as it is with other players.

I could go on and on. lastmurti is unpredictable, nexon is retaliatory, etc.

So where am I going with this?

I freely admit to being a big time trucer. It's a winning, proven strategy. And I will truce with anyone. When I make the decision to truce, it's based on a lot of factors, and as the game is on a clock it's often a split second decision. When you're making fast decisions, you tend to rely on a lot of subconscious variables.

Let's take a couple of hypothetical scenarios. Remember, I am making the decision to maximize my given points in a situation.

Scenario 1:

I have two neighbors, montecarlo who is weak and an unknown player who is strong, but not overwhelmingly strong. I will likely attack montecarlo.

Scenario 2:

I have two neighbors, montecarlo who is weak and an unknown player who is weak. I will likely attack the unknown player. Why? Because I've run 300 iterations of the prisoner's diliemma with monte, and I know that he is a player who rewards cooperation. It's not that I dislike the unknown player, or that I like monte in particular.

There are a million variations, but when you add them all up, I am *more likely* to truce with players I know. What does this lead to? Well, I'm hardly the only one who is making these kinds of decisions, *Every* player makes these decisions. A simple way of saying this is "I know who I can trust, and who I can't."

Essentially, the player who truces, and who makes a habit of studying other players to know who to trust and who not to trust, will trend towards the elite section of the game. This behavior tends to reinforce itself, as with lots of trucing going on, *not* trucing becomes an even worse technique, and tends to hurt people.

So, what does this mean to "aspiring" 10k players?

A few important things...

First, trucing is a fact of life at 10k. Get used to it, and get good at it.

Second, you probably didn't get PGAed. What FAR more likely happened was that, when it got down to 4 or 5 players, it was a bunch of people who knew each other, and you. Those players don't dislike you, and they didn't arrange anything in advance. Instead they are making decisions designed to maximize their return on the game, and you are an unknown variable to them.

So how do you overcome this?

First, don't get discouraged. It's NOT an old boys club, it's a bunch of individual players making decisions that tend to hurt unknown players on the board. What you need to do is keep coming back, and make yourself known.

I know that my personal experience at 1k was that I got my butt kicked when I first got there. But eventually as I got some good starts and truced with people from a position of advantage, people began to recognize me and remember that it was safe to team with me, and I've never looked back.

Second, you *HAVE* to chat, talk, and negotiate. If people don't know you, they are not likely to reach out to you. I can't count the number of times I've watched a board conversation play out, and the new guy who didn't say anything suddenly screams PGA when he gets attacked after it all got spelled out on the board.

Really anyone who wants to can succed at 10k by learning to negotiate, and by always honoring your truces.

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JeremyS wrote
at 12:48 PM, Friday February 1, 2008 EST
Actually, kdicefreak, what I am describing is the exact opposite of an old boys club.

With an OBC, membership is denied to some and granted to others on an arbitrary basis of some sort, whether it be financial status, skin color, or connections.

What I'm talking about is an established meritocracy, where the main route to success is building up rep as a fair player. It's open to anyone willing to play cool and establish a rep.
MadHat_Sam wrote
at 1:24 PM, Friday February 1, 2008 EST
Good post.

Kdicefreak, get over yourself.

Jdizzle, nothing is taboo everything is allowed. You play your game first and everyone elses never. This can rub some people the wrong way but the scoring isn't like the elo era.

In elo when you broke 2k, you had to risk playing at a 2k table because the loss on the 1700 table with a 2k elo would be huge and the difficulty to get back to 2k is hard when you were playing people with low 1700 elo.

In the new scoring you can play the lower level games as long as you want and can move up to a higher level table when you have a nice safe cushion. If you play a 10k table you had better be willing to take the 7th and the possible -2700+ that might come with it. If you aren't willing to take that loss then you shouldn't be at the table.

The social aspect of the higher tables make this game so much more fun. If I wanted to just play a game that involved rolling dice, I would play dicewars and I highly encourage anyone that hates the social aspect to please do everyone a favor and go play dicewars.

One thing in kdice is true, if you attack everyone there is a good chance that everyone will want to attack you back. This is true at all levels but on the higher tables so when you see a bunch of people chatting and all of a sudden they gang up you the first thought might be OMG PGA!!! Instead you might want to think about how the game has played to that point and if you were too aggressive and made a bunch of enemies.

There will always be unspoken aggreements in kdice at all levels, but more so with the more regular players that play 300+ games a month, yes we know we really should do something better with our time.

The power of the unspoken truce (NOT PRE-GAME, but in game) is that it can take a entire game for the rest of the table to pick up on it so they can't counter your truce. At the very least you are hoping for a couple of rounds where you can work as a team and secure the table. When you ask someone to ally early you run the risk of getting a stronger group to counter against you.

When I play in the early stages of the game I hope my neighbors I don't attack reply in kind and that my neighbors I do attack die. Like Jerermy was saying as you play enough games against people you know who you can trust to understand your actions and who you should attack.

So yeah, that was enough ramble.
kdicefreak wrote
at 2:09 PM, Friday February 1, 2008 EST
Ok, may be it is not an old boys club, but it is a club nonetheless. I still refused to kiss asses in order to get admitted to the so-called elite group. I win games on my own and I loose big points sometimes. No matter what happen here in kdice, I am proud of it.

There is no right or wrong in wanting to be one of them. It is just that different people have different values and objectives in coming here. Mine is to have fun only.

JeremyS, I thank you for your response. I know a lot of people dislike me and whenever I post here they just say, ?screw you?, like Hat. My previous post is actually a serious response to yours and I welcome having a discussion with you. You have shown that you are a much better person than them despite our difference in opinion. Thank you.
ltsply2 wrote
at 2:25 PM, Friday February 1, 2008 EST
It is a good post, and Sam's comment is also dead on. Let me just make another couple of points though...

First we need to appreciate that there is a difference between a PGA like we saw in the cabal days and certain kinds of potentially unfair trucing like what you're describing. What you are describing isn't a pre-game alliance, but it is a form of meta-gaming, basically gaming that takes into account factors outside of those actually in the game.

Now you are correct that this is the most successful strategy. Similarly, if your goal is to maximize points a PGA is a great strategy and proxies or multiple seats is even better. The point is that it isn't simply a no-holds barred get the most points possible situation. In fact, in most games meta-gaming is considered unethical or poor sportsmanship at least.

The reason why is that you have information that is not available to other players. So say some newbie slides up to the 10k tables... He doesn't know that monte is an ass-kissing sycophant ;) or that nexon is retaliatory or whatever. He is at an automatic disadvantage, not because of anything in the game but because of meta-game issues. (This is also a big deal when certain players are not English speakers. Knowing that can help a great deal.)

Now there's nothing that can be done about the fact that you know personality traits, but it does make it VERY difficult to break into the group. It is like poker where knowing that someone is very aggressive, or bluffs a lot, or only plays great cards, is a huge advantage. That in and of itself sucks for the newbie, but there isn't anything that can be done in the current system (short of anonymizing the tables) so basically you're screwed until you can get enough experience to know who acts how.

At the same time though, this shows itself in another fashion. If a newbie, you, and monte (just using the two of you as an example it could be anyone of the top 100 that consistently face each other) are sitting at the table and everyone is at roughly the same strength then an overwhelming proportion of the time the newbie will be the one who ends up third following a 2v1. It's not because you and monte had a pga, but you realize that you're going to see each other in the future and that it is in your best interest to maintain a good relationship (at least as far as possible). To the newbie, though, it doesn't matter that it wasn't a "pre-game" arrangement, all they know is that the two of you joined teams for reasons that seemed entirely unrelated to the game. (And of course this doesn't happen all the time, we are talking fairly specific conditions.)

So is it good or bad? Should it be condoned or discouraged?

Look at it from the point of view of Ryan's new "cheating" algorithm. That tests to see if you end up with a significantly higher rank than usual when a particular someone else achieves first. This obviously is the case with a PGA, but it is also going to happen (given a large enough sample size) with you and monte given the scenarios you mention in your original post. Now, it is much less noticeable because in a lot of your games with monte it isn't just you monte and a bunch of newbies who don't have the meta information, but often 4 or 5 people with the meta. In a lot of those games monte or you is going to be crushed early on because of luck or whatever because you aren't helping the other person from the beginning, but rather starting when its down to, say, four people.

In other words the difference between a PGA and the kind of meta-gaming you are describing is just a matter of degrees or strength of selection.

That said, there's nothing that you can do. You can't expect players to ignore what they know about other people and you certainly can't enforce it. Ryan could make anonymous tables, but that would take some (a lot?) of fun out of the game. At the same time though, the established elite (or whatever you want to call them) need to appreciate that they have a systematic advantage over newbies and that often this manifests as "unfairness".

(And yes, trucing early and often may be the best strategy for accumulating lots of points, but does it maximize the fun of the game for all?)
Danny_DCB wrote
at 2:32 PM, Friday February 1, 2008 EST
What is this? A longest post contest?
lesplaydices wrote
at 2:36 PM, Friday February 1, 2008 EST
lololol
kdicefreak wrote
at 2:36 PM, Friday February 1, 2008 EST
ltsply2 - great post.

ryan defined PGA as two or more players working together without others knowing. this is exactly what's happening in what you described as meta-gaming. if i am a newbiw playing with monte and jeremys, i wouldn;t know that they have a history at the 1k table and i would not suspect that they would work together. does that put me in a disadvantage? sure. while meta-gaming is exactly the same as PGA, it is nonetheless unfair to the players outside of the ring.

all they have to do is the moment they decided to work together, say it in the chat box so that others can have a strategy (form another alliance against it, truce with others, etc.) to counter. that's all i am asking? is it too much?
kdicefreak wrote
at 2:38 PM, Friday February 1, 2008 EST
correction:

"while meta-gaming is NOT exactly the same as PGA, it is nonetheless unfair to the players outside of the ring. "
sunvic wrote
at 3:34 PM, Friday February 1, 2008 EST
It's nice to see an original post in the forums.
the full monte wrote
at 4:16 PM, Friday February 1, 2008 EST
msak's greatest weakness is a vocal counter organizer.

my favorite and most successful msaks this past month were newbies. msak sort of takes advantage of a newbie, because really they are scared trembling little cute puppies (think: Kehoe), who will do anything not to get pwnd back down. so when you offer them an early truce, they love you, and are extremely trustworthy. ive said this before and ill say it again: my biggest source of success this past month was all of the new faces i played with. this (i think) was due to the highest table being only 10k, so the risk/reward was minimal for anyone over 20k lets say, which includes hundreds of people. last month, on the other hand, had a highest table of 5k, which only allowed about 25 people to play it, and really only about 10 considered it worth the risk.
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