Ok Alex I'll bite.

1: Just because I have a membership doesn't make trophies worth any more or less in general. While the trophies are wroth more to me since I am actually paying that doesn't change the fact that they are worthless in the real world. Thus my point about it not mattering how you get them still holds true.

2. Sure members has PGA but it's incidence is much less and it's regulated to players like liljohnson, slinus etc which basically means players with very little to no actual skill.

3. The fact that you even use the words OTF as a way of explaining away PGA shows that you don't realize there is no difference.

4. Jurgen allows PGA because he allows OTF. Many of his player friends have convinced him that OTF is a valid strat. It's not like Jurgen has much of a choice in how to moderate given the lack of owner presence I am just stating the obvious here. Also no mod is perfect. Mods typically ban people they don't like and are much more lenient to players they do. For example Jurgz hasn't banned that douche south american player (Can't remember his name right now) who has been spamming chat with all sorts of violent and racist shit. There have been many screenshots and complaints submitted and Jugren keeps saying "I just haven't got a chance to talk to him yet." If jurgz wasn't friends with the guy then the player would have been banned a LONG time ago.

Re-reading this I feel that I am portraying Jurgan too much as a villain. I honestly view him as a normal guy given little options and just going with the flow. The problem with moderation on this site lays with the site creator not the moderators. All humans will become corrupt if they do not have the power to change things enough.

Anyways the point I'm making is that high tables are almost impossible to sit at due to a variety of cheating and that getting medals doesn't matter in the real world so they don't matter period. I one wants to pay or cheat to get one it is the SAME thing.

1. Didn't mention anything about medals being less worth in the end. It only matters if you care what others say about your way of getting them. Basically, you have to be really bad not to get a top 10 position playing members at least once a day. You use the tools you have to gain the highest score possible. Nothing wrong with that, doesn't mean I have to like it.

2. Well.. Players have missed PGA's in the members countless times before Jurgen has stepped in. There might even be some right now under your nose. I'm not getting into details because it's a whole another story. Us old timers and Jurgen can vouch for that. It's been a long time since I played or been there so I can't really comment on it. But I hear it hasn't changed.

3. OTF stands for old trusted friend or even off table friend.
I'll try not to repeat myself too much, but if you're given the option to truce a friend you know very well and trust aka OTF or a guy you haven't seen before (most likely a noob), then you're going to truce the OTF. Don't even deny it. I'm not using OTF to defend PGA, I've said before that OTF is just a way of excusing PGA. Which is true a lot of times. But that's not the case every time! There isn't a clear difference, if it was then it would've been an easier subject.

**AIex wrote
at 7:46 PM, Thursday March 20, 2014 CDT

* Not hitting a "friend" well knowing it's your best move to progress in that game; pga

* Protecting a "friend" who isn't truce tied or gave you a clear advantage to your position; pga

* Going into a game with a "friend" with an agreement or knowing you're gonna play together; pga

* Talking to a "friend" about the game in a different chat you're both playing in. Same goes with any other language than english in the main chat; pga

* Throwing a game to a "friend" or helping him in a situation because he guilted you to thinking you screwed in him in a previous game; funneling

* Being too nice to a "friend" because he's aiming for a medal; funneling

Probably forgot something, but the rules page should really get a proper update.**

4. If you re-read that thread about that spanish guy, you would see it differently. If you've been here long enough you would see that your assumptions about him is very wrong. Not saying he's modding has been perfect or consistent every time. But the balance now is as good as it's ever been.

Put yourself in his shoes. What more can you expect from a guy who's not even getting a discount on his membership for his effort. A guy with a job, a family and getting little or no help from anyone to help him out. A guy who's trying his best to stay fair to everyone, banning friends if he needs to. He's not allowing PGA, he's trying his best to keep it as low as he can with the limited powers he's possessed with. Unless you're contributing to help him out with providing evidence of unfair or cheating (and this goes for everyone), you really have no right in criticising his effort imho.

This is a matter of perspective, I'm not trying to slaughter your arguments here. I'm just voicing my opinions. There's a lot more I could include in this post about this, but I'll stop here.

TL;DR

The more time you spend here, the more you will be familiar with what I'm trying to say. Whether you like it or not.

nerds

The problem with OTF/silent truces/friendly-play is how subtle the gameplay can occur. Sometimes it comes down to just one turn in an entire game, blink and you will miss it. The only way to combat this behaviour is anonymization.

Anonymization -
Make players completely anonymous.
Randomize board representation for each player.
No chat during play.
Reveal players identity after game.

Alex I'm not a new player. This is only a new account. I have been here since '08. Which is why I felt the need to clarify my posts where I mention jurgz. Obviously he isn't as bad as Thraxle or These Cards Suck.

PGA = OTF there is no other explanation. It's why I am playing on a new account so I can win and lose based on how I play vs who knows me. Yes that also means I lose some games because other players player nicer with each other than me but I enjoy the challenge.

About PGA in members you are right though. Last month was the first month I played members in a while and I thought PGA was gone from it. This month there is much more PGA going on. It has to do with the players. Some players respect members while they PGA on reg tables and other players do not.

Trying to argue that higher level tables are full of pga and that's why youre not winning points there is cognitive dissonance. You're just telling yourself that to save your ego the embarrasment of realising youre not good enough to make points there.

They're not. I've played there alot the last half year. Some people otf without or with knowledge, but they'll knock that shit out usually if you tell them about it. Ofc members are easy points compared to playing high level tables. It's basically free points. On a normal table you get paid for the top 2 spots. In a members tourney you most likely will get paid in 2 out of 3 of them without even playing.

If there were more members, the problem wouldnt be that bad.

Here's the thing. A I gained 15k points on 2k and 5k tables last month. I know how to sit them and I know how to win them.

If you have 2 players that are OTF (which is PGA to be clear and I will be using PGA from now on) and it's a 5 player game, you are regulated to fighting 2/3 unless you get the most awesome start ever and even then you are going to be fighting for it.

If more than two PGA sits then the changes of not losing points is pretty much gone even at a 7 player.

I think there is some sort of cognitive dissonance going on here. I'm not saying I'm incapable of winning points or even complaining about the system. I'm only saying that with the system the way it is, how is it any different getting a medal through member tournies than PGA(OTF) on high tables?

http://kdice.com/profile/45180419/currentGamePlayer/stats

^^