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Discuss. There is no transitivity in flagging.
rimini wrote
at 7:23 PM, Wednesday February 9, 2011 EST
About those flags...

I believe that generally (that is, not in all possible worlds but usually), there should not be transitivity in flagging.

If player A flags B, and B flags C, then this does NOT mean that A flags C.

Usually, this would mean that if A fights C, this will be an automatic battle for places 1 and 3. Right?

Now, in this case, B has no obligation towards C that goes BEYOND not attacking him, right? A flag does not mean: "I will help you attain a good position".

Would the kdice-crowd agree that B is fine to let A and C fight it out, and if A wins over C, then B has done nothing wrong? I believe this is a logical conclusion from the system of personal flagging!

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Debster wrote
at 3:18 AM, Thursday February 10, 2011 EST
*hits edit button*

flags TO players are transitive
OviloN wrote
at 5:22 AM, Thursday February 10, 2011 EST
Let's see it that way:
Players: A, B, C, D.
B flagged to A, C flagged to A. Be further Player A and C separeted by B. What I want to say is, B is the wall between them! So if flags aren't transitive, A need to get his way to C, while doing this, he obviously needs to hurt B. Worst-Case: a split right in the middle. So at this moment player D comes in. As A and C are fighting he has plenty of time to gang on B. B get's fucked by D, A gets fucked by C, C gets fucked by D as he had an easy game to kill the splitted player and now has +32. So we'll end up with 3 players pissed of and a happy one who sneaked 1st.
OviloN wrote
at 5:57 AM, Thursday February 10, 2011 EST
<hit edit> Players=players, of=off </hit edit>
KDICEMOD wrote
at 7:06 AM, Thursday February 10, 2011 EST
Verbal flags mean almost nothing.

Real flags are the only quasi-enforceable flags on KDice.

If you want to avoid this problem of transitive flags, don't flag to a player, flag for a position. If player B is obviously in first place and you want to flag to him don't say "I flag player B". Instead say, "Player B, I flag for 2nd". This implies that you want 2nd place and not something lower. Later in the game if Player B gets the notion to flag to Player C, you can remind Player B that you flagged for 2nd and reserve the right to fight for it regardless of what that means.

Usually players A and B will team up to get 1st and 2nd, but if Player B is hard-headed Player A should kick his ass and make him 3rd.

My $.02.
OviloN wrote
at 7:24 AM, Thursday February 10, 2011 EST
good cents. It's player A's job to keep track of the flags HE gets and to force players to raise them.
reminder wrote
at 6:06 PM, Thursday February 10, 2011 EST
That blog part posted by monte pretty much explains how it works. You stick to flags being ONLY transitive or intransitive, chances are you're either get some rage, anger and pges, or you'll be screwed from time to time.
reminder wrote
at 6:37 PM, Thursday February 10, 2011 EST
@SHOGUN

Now I wouldn't like to insult you, but you calling yourself a gullible idiot is not extremely far from truth.

If 2nd is bigger than 1st, and he is flagged to first, like ~4/5 times he will allow others to destroy 1st (seeing his flag as intransitive for his own profit). If such situation doesn't arise (others are too weak), chances are good he will stab anyway as long as he doesn't have the real flag up and others are flagged.

In such case it's imperative to force a real flag. As 1st, you must ask for a real flag as soon as possible if he is smaller but likely to grow a lot more. If he doesn't agree - truce his biggest enemy and rape him together.

If 2nd is bigger at the point of flagging, you should ignore his flag at least for a turn and hit him to become smaller than you and able to raise a real flag. To be polite, you can even say 'sorry man, missed it". Another thing you can do is to ask for some lands so that he could raise a real flag for 2nd - if he doesn't agree, truce 3rd and rape the crap out of him.

I'm pretty sure other situations are possible, but those I described are most common.

--------------------------


Now this doesn't even apply for your case, cause you didn't even get a verbal flag (which is SOME relief, but very little of it). You say you were flaglocked and didn't want to hurt smaller players? First of all, when he was weaker, you should've asked for a verbal flag. He doesn't agree - you tell him something like "if I have to ruin a smaller player to reach you, I will, but then I won't take your flag at all". He still doesn't flag - get a pass through small fishes (even if it means killing one of them) and truce others. As you're biggest (you should also show some effort to protect them later on), they are usually happy to agree.

Forcing a real flag without a border is somewhat harder. First, you must warn others NOT to raise real flags, this is very important. As soon as another player has confirmed his 2nd, ask for some lands off him. He doesn't agree - truce 3rd or all others and get a pass asap, even if it means killing someone. Now if you didn't warn 3rd to avoid raising a real flag, chances are all small people will flag out and 2nd may stab, wouldn't be surprising in a tourney at all.

I respect people who try to help (or not hurt) others, but it must have its limits, else it becomes stupidity. First and foremost YOU must secure your position to dictate the rules, and if you rely on others' kindness (be it others supporting you against a flag breaker or another player keeping his word when it would be better for him not to), you WILL get screwed.

Be nice, be paranoid. Works 95% of the time, except for some very special cases I won't bother describing.
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