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A brief, maybe, history on Vflags.
MadHat_Sam wrote
at 5:39 PM, Monday May 3, 2010 EDT
I don't know if it has been many people asking, or just the same person asking many times, but I feel I have seen the question of who invented "vflags" asked many times, maybe not I don't really pay that close attention. Brief answer: Ryan.

Ok I am bored here is the not brief answer.

The original scoring system for KDice was based on ELO, no I won't explain how it works wikipedia is your fried. In the ELO era the flagging system was radically different. First you didn't flag for a position, second you could unflag. The mechanics were that to end the game every player still alive besides the person in first had to have their flag checked, and when that occurred you received the position that you were in when the last person clicked their flag. This meant to get 2nd you had to be in 2nd place when the game ended. The mechanics allowed for some rather amusing hi-jinx and "exploits" such as true ninja flagging where a person would expand rapidly and flag before anyone else to could unflag allowing them to move up in position. While there was dominance under ELO it wasn't as a significant portion of the score and your position mattered much more, this is a function of how ELO works you are scored based on your finish relative to the ELO's of those that finish above and below you.

That all ended in September of 2007, raise your hands if you were playing then if you weren't then your weren't the person that invented vflagging. The September '07 scoring system only lasted one month, but marked a few significant changes in the mechanics of the game play and scoring. First off monthly resets started, you used to keep your ELO score from month to month and gain points based on games played and the Rank of your ELO score. Now everyone started at 0 every month and had to claw up, member bonuses arrived in January of 2008 ending the everyone at 0 and creating a new kdice "elite" class after the ending of the 2k ELO elite another story for another time.

Okay off track back to the flagging system. Under the new system when you flagged you went to grey and surrendered. This created a predicament for many players when they weren't offered a truce with a person they didn't have a real way to put the flag up unless they wanted to surrender right then and there. The dreaded phrase "vflag" was spawned, and while there may have been instances of a similar act occurring in ELO it was very rare as you could always put the flag up and back down. Now vflagging, or otherwise referred by to misnomers: verbal flagging or virtual flagging, as you aren't verbally saying flag and you aren't putting up a virtual representation of a flag. Vagina flagging would be the more appropriate describer of what "vflag" means. So began the era of "Player X:vflag blue" now there was much debate over "vflags" at point amongst the community and most of that goes back to the point that the phrase "vflag" is lame. Simply saying flag to the appropriate player is superior although still lame.

The flag and surrender system continued until the current system was implemented in January 2008. The only difference from January '08 and now is that for the first couple months you did not need to wait until certain round to put up a flag. This caused many people to put up a flag for 2nd in the first round to whoever had the strongest start and create often times what was a rather difficult 1/2 truce and ending any real competition in the game before the first round was over.

No single player invented the "vflag" and many have developed the proper manipulative skills needed use "vflags" to gain positions that the nature of dice placement and rolling luck would not otherwise have allowed. Ryan invented vflagging because he made the scoring systems what they are and created the situation that people thought they needed to "vflag" remember though just because a player flagged for real or just said flag in chat doesn't mean that you cannot attack them. The term "vflag" has diminished in use in my opinion so at least that is a small victory, but people still flag to often and too early.

The current scoring system is the worst of all the previous scoring system in my humble opinion as it rewards pure volume over quantity in a matter that makes playing the most far more important then playing the best.

A return to a flagging system similar to ELO, which wasn't perfect I know, would create more necessity to fight for a position. Also the dominance scoring is woefully broken some might say because of playing styles that I championed, but the solutions didn't stop the problems I was accused of creating they only made it worse. The game is still fun, just not as fun as it could be or was.

Okay this is now way too long and I imagine most will not read it, hell I barely did ;-)

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MadHat_Sam wrote
at 9:39 PM, Tuesday May 4, 2010 EDT
I agree Travis, the only change really in the game since mid 2008 is point inflation and some minor tweaks to fix errors or bugs. Essentially it is the same game it has been for way too long. Many have advocated for a change and nothing has come.
wishbone wrote
at 8:33 AM, Thursday May 6, 2010 EDT
Sam, good post, pats a fellow 2k elitist on the back, whilst you pat yourself on the back.

Here is the biggest problem with ELO, at least with the original scoring, the first place player can hold the top spot play one game, where +1 point (for a win) to your score was an INCREDIBLE gain.

BUT, I can't see implementing a resetting ELO, because that is really against its nature.

And so you come full circle back to your minute end point about having a more fun game, how do you create this? The game has become stagnant, and is incredibly easy to manipulate.
Kehoe wrote
at 8:53 AM, Thursday May 6, 2010 EDT
I thought the way Ryan fixed the sitting on ELO problem was creating a decaying ELO, where you lost points each day you didn't play. I think if you make the decay an exponential increase, this would be effective in keeping people playing.
the full monte wrote
at 8:55 AM, Thursday May 6, 2010 EDT
as far as elo, just tweak the formula so that there isnt such a massive difference between 1st and 25th. cue chloe and skrum to argue over the best formula, but here are some stupid ideas to start with:

(1/place + 1) / 2 --- basically changes the range from [0,1] to [0.5,1]
1/sqrt(place) --- i actually like this one... 25th would get 0.2 points, 9th would get 0.33, 4th gets 0.5, 1st 1.0

thats a good scale on the second one.



......


and as far as new changes, i dont know how much we can trust tcs, but i gotta admit it really seems like he keeps in decent touch with Ryan. last month, he stopped by the chatbox and mentioned that he and Ryan were discussing implementing a countdown-to-game-start for tables that are slow-filling. i.e. if a 5k usually takes forever to fill at the wrong times of day, you can just go sit there with at least one other person, and as soon as you sit, a timer will appear saying the game will start in 5 minutes, regardless of if it fills to 7 or if it stays heads up. the top players would LOVE this i think.

i mentioned that potential cheaters might abuse this too, at odd hours of the night (usa time) (cough cough fiero). but still, i think it would be easy to police it, would be similar to catching chip dumpers in gpokr, right?

anyways i like the idea. so if tcs isnt full of it, this change might be coming, as long as Ryan can get it coded before his second child pops out of his wife (congrats, btw).
Lattie Bakes wrote
at 9:35 AM, Thursday May 6, 2010 EDT
My point on this topic is simple, a vflag is like a real flag only problem is that the person who is in first usually honors it or does not. I see the same accounts in the top 100 every month and yes I have been playing since Sept. 07, even b4 then. The whole concept of flagging has gone to far with ninja flaggers and idiots who flag for no reason. I try and earn my spot and if a person does not flag then attacks after being asked to flag out....well it's just dumb. They do not show the honor that you were given for your spot. If ya really take a look deep into my stats you will see that the first half of the month I do great; then the last half I do crappy due to this issue. I am so sick and tired of it and alot of people have told me numerous things but to no solution. To me here's an idea, only first place gets points, why bother going for a steady 2nd or 3rd when in reality of this game it does not help. Sorry, for the length of this, but I felt I needed to get this off my chest once and for all.
wishbone wrote
at 10:12 PM, Thursday May 6, 2010 EDT
lattie you forgot to log out of your alt. idiot. alts are stupid.
mr Kreuzfeld wrote
at 12:08 AM, Friday May 7, 2010 EDT
1800 sucker here.

I think I gotta agree with jr, a system that is changing, will force players to rethink their style. that way the persons that would be preforming best would be the people that was best at rethinking

I suggest H.O.R.S.E

for those unfamiliar with horse, it is a poker style. where in every blind level, the game is changed

HORSE = (Hold em, Omaha, Razz, Stud, stud Eight or better)

so, every month Ryan could change between those three versons of the game. ELO (without reset, but if you are below 1600 you go up to 1600), insta flag, and current.

might even do a current dom less, or dom only

I would love to play K-HORSE
fcuku wrote
at 12:14 PM, Friday May 7, 2010 EDT
or they could make leaderboards for the different scoring systems, and give out trophies to all of the KHORSE styles of play.
happytoscrap wrote
at 12:27 PM, Friday May 7, 2010 EDT
the "E" in HORSE is for Stud Eight-high.

Eight or better sounds funny. and....Eight or worse would actually be more accurate.

fcuku wrote
at 12:41 PM, Friday May 7, 2010 EDT
good to know. ill file that under 'things no one really gives a shit about'
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