yeah thrax, during the bush years, my (hypothetical) tax dollars would have gone on to support many endeavors that i thought were fundamentally wrong, but thats what you get when the people in power's ideals dont necessarily fit with your ideals. welcome to democracy!

btw mawnte, nice 100 post thread that you didnt start

ok, now i gotta go make a wall of text, brb

"When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." - Benjamin Franklin

as long as fieros bandwagon thread doesnt clear 100, ill be ok.

ite

-obama does NOT get credit for starting the iraq withdrawal, he gets credit for continuing the withdrawal after he took office. and the only reason that is a big deal is because the opposition (mccain) would have stopped the withdrawl and actually sent more troops to iraq

-obama has already sent 2 more battalions to afghanistan, he realizes the weight of the situation and is sending in reinforcements when the military commanders call for it. The military is doing the best it can to come to a fast conclusion in afghanistan.

-yes the russians are trying to get the americas scared of red again, but the whole world is conscious of what russia is trying to do, and when they do try to expand their influence in a more aggressive way (see georgia) nations from around the world, not just the US, gather together to make sure that it doesnt happen. i never said that i thought we should stand idly by and watch them build another empire. i am just saying that there are enough nations in the world that do not want to see another USSR that we shouldnt have to expand our military spending even more to make sure this doesnt happen. Which brings me to another point which is that our outrageous military spending in the last 8 years definitely hasnt helped the deficit.

-this comment is pretty stupid. it shows your ignorance in reading comprehension. If youre that worried about income taxes move to a state where they dont charge for personal income taxes (TX, FL, and NV i think there are others too) Where else do you think the govt gets money? they MUST tax their people, and when the government is in debt, they must tax MORE. I seriously doubt you will see any of the major businesses move out of the US mostly bc the US is the country that made it possible for them to make $500K+ a year. also, they are only paying 60% of their income in taxes if they do not have an accountant (which is their own fault if they have that much money)
The US has a built in aristocracy anyways with the whole top 2% of americans control 90% of the money, so logically, the top 2% will also pay 90% of the taxes;. i do not see why republicans complain about being taxed because aside from having an informed opinion and joining the military, its one of the most patriotic things you can do.

-my whole response here was meant to be sarcastic, but of course, you did not catch it and took my statement literally.

-same thing here. the obvious reason that mrs obama said that was because she actually felt like the american dream had finally been realized and that america could finally look beyond the color of someones skin. not because she hated america before her husband was elected.

-well if reagan can get credit for freeing hostages, obama can get credit for shutting down gitmo

-once again, you must realize that the govt cant waive its magic deficit erasing wand and make it disappear, it must come through taxes while at the same time stimulating the economy. just because you dont agree with the policies that the president is putting foward doesnt mean that 'the world is going to hell'

-the media has changed. the only people that listen to the president daily radio address are the people on the farleft and right, and 80 year olds. in order to communicate with the masses, one must use the medium that they use most often.

-ummm, i forgot sotomayor too, but she is a supreme court justice, that was approved by the committee just like everyone else was. if she was really so unfit for office they would have never let her on the supreme court (which is probably the most useless of our branches of govt)

Some quotes I enjoy:

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Jefferson

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." - Franklin

"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." - Patrick Henry

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Jefferson

i got a nice qoute too
"the left hand now knows what the right hand is doing" George W. Bush

its funny when you compare it to this one:
"...do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing..." Jesus, (Matthew 6,3)

btw, best president ever = james k. polk
tennesseean, baby.

congrats on the over 100 posts moon

Ok, time to throw a wall of text monte style. I made it through 2/3 of this thread before I just said fuck it and jumped to the reply. I really wish some of you would learn to have debates without getting offended that someone disagrees with your point of view so you have to try and belittle them. At the same time, if you're going to enter in a political debate, please take a little time and effort to know your head from you asshole and back up your claims with supporting evidence instead of saying "blah blah blah" is better cause I said so.

Anyways, this whole post reminds me of my family gatherings when politics come up. My Mom and Dad, grandparents and one set of Aunt and Uncles are ultra conservative. My other Aunt and Uncle and a few of my cousins are ultra liberal. They both get very defensive when they discuss politics, and start trying to get into name calling instead of talking like adults. This is the main reason we've just banned political discussion on Thanksgiving and Christmas since it just leads to bad news.

Anyways, a lot of what I see in here just shows how little people follow day to day politics and get there information from some 3rd party. It's become so difficult to follow politics, bills have become so large and cumbersome, that its near impossible to read them. Lobbyist place infortmation out there, under cleverly named PAC's to try and sound like an independant source of information, to skew the public opinion in their favor. Talk show hosts, on both sides of the aisle, demonize the other party, over-state what is going on and paint their own political party as the next coming of christ. Typically, the everyday joe isn't going to know a whole lot of what happens in politics in DC, because its become so convoluted and difficult to sift through the bullshit and get real answers.

A lot of accusations are thrown around of what is good and bad about politicians here, and a lot of it is without basis. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan:

- The pullout as has been said was started by George W. Bush, but an end game and timeline was not really laid out. Obama took it the next step and gave timelines and troop levels with dates. The plan that we're under now is not the optimum choice of the military leaders in the pentagon but at the same time it's not the choice of the democratic leaders on the hill. Some said it was too fast, others said it was too slow. Honestly, if you're not making anyone happy, that is usually a good sign in politics.

- Afghanistan is another beast on to itself. We're 8+ years into the conflict, and with very little to show for it. What gains we made earlier on in Afghanistan we're stymied due to the fact that our whole attention turned to Iraq on a wild goose chase. That loss of attention left us floundering in Afghanistan. I'm afraid what we've put in power there is just as corrupt as what was there before, the american people don't really have the stomach for a full force invasion like would be needed similar to Iraq, but if we don't go that strong we'll end up with something much closer to Vietnam. It's kind of a Catch 22. In my opinion, I'd prefer to see our resources spent more in Pakistan, helping stabilize that government, a country with nuclear capabilities and fighting very similar fights that we're doing in Afghanistan. I've not seen any plan laid out as what we're going to be doing in Afghanistan, and some will say that shows weakness, but honestly, I'd rather him take extra time and get something closer to right than wrong. I'd hate to think my friends in the military would have to go back there for the next 10 years because we just keep half assing what we do over there.

The politics in Washington have gotten really dirty over the past year. The democrats have decided they are only going to have things their way. The republicans have decided they want to fight anything the democrats propose, rather than sit down and come to a compromise. I hate having a single party control of the legislative and executive branch of the governments. I prefer having the check and balances that force discussion and compromise.

I tend to try and be well educated on a few topics, and try and find what I can on others. My main issue topics tend to be related to my work field. Transportation, infastructure, roads, air quality, EPA issues, etc. Our infastructure is deteriorating, and we have no way to really maintain what we have not to mention grow what we have to meet the needs of our growing country. 1 of every 4 bridges are structurally deficient and in need of replacement. Our Highway trust fund, is bankrupt, it's been borrowing money from other portions of government to meet financial needs. We have no transportation bill, the current bill we're working under is just a reauthroization of SAFETEA-LU but no real discussions have come up to bring a new bill to life. When the current bill was reauthorized, approximately 9 billion dollars were rescended from state DOT's because partisan politics reared its ugly head. (the democrats were punishing the republicans for not playing ball on healthcare, so they wouldn't remove the rescencion in the reauthorization of the bill)

http://www.asce.org/reportcard/2009/grades.cfm

Thats a report card for civil engineering issues that relate to our country. As much as I can sit here and spout off information that relates to my field of study, most of you'd just glaze over what I'd say since day in and day out it doesn't directly affect you. This is what happens with most political issues. Since something doesn't directly affect me right now, I tend to not pay it as much attention as I do our infrastructure issues. We typically will only hear an outcry when something terrible happens (I-35 bridge collapse in Minnesota) but that outcry lessens as time passes. We've got a bridge here in TN that has a structural grade that is 5 times lower than the MN bridge that collapsed, but there is no money and no political will to fix the problem.

This is our problem as a country. We are no longer a nation of great thinkers and proactives, we're a nation of status quo and reactionaries. Gone are the Eisenhowers and the creation of national interstate system, Herbert Hoover and the creation of the Hoover Dam, men that made decisions with the future in mind. Now we're just trying to skirt by the present day. I wish I really could devote the time and effort to other issues that I do to transportation and civil engineering issues, but unfortunately politics are so complicated now that there aren't enough hours in 5 years to keep up with just 1 year's policies and bills.

In closing: You're all dumb, I'm enlightened, my political party is right, yours is wrong, SUCK MY DICK. FUCK YOU, FUCK YOU, FUCK YOU, YOU'RE COOL, FUCK YOU, I'M OUT!