Forum
Common misconceptions about the current flagging system.
Posted By: Vermont at 9:20 AM, Wednesday November 19, 2014 EST
I've noticed that a good deal of the frustration with the game and with other players is consistently due to misunderstandings of the flagging system. This becomes pretty evident when you take a look at players' review pages and a large majority of the negative, and even positive comments, deal with flagging.
The initial flagging system was introduced solely as a way to help the game end faster. It was a simple checkbox, not related to place. When all players other than the one in first checked this box the game would end and each player would receive place based on their current position.
Incidentally, this system led to 'ninja flagging,' where a player would wait for everyone else to have their flag up and then quickly over-expand and then flag themselves, ending the game. They would then finish much higher than they should have otherwise. This led to some fun games as people would watch and try to respond, but it also cause some frustration. Anyone who uses 'ninja flagging' in regards to the current system is using the term incorrectly.
I bring this up because the current flagging system was introduced specifically to address the ninja flagging 'problem.' Some players that play in both systems find the old system preferable, some do not. To each their own; I don't think Ryan will be changing it back anytime soon.
The issue we have now is that flags are grossly misunderstood. You see people all the time expecting that when their flag is up they will not be attacked and thus they feel you did not "honor" or "respect" their flag if you attack them. This completely erroneous assumption has lead to a great deal of complaining, frustration, and negative review leaving.
Here are the flagging facts:
1. If you flag to someone, they have the complete right to still attack you, and often should. There is nothing 'dishonorable' about it. They may need to expand to fight for a higher position and your flag should not stop them from expanding to do so. They may want to earn more dom points - it is their right to do so as they have clearly earned a stronger position. Flags are ONLY there to help the game end faster; they are not magic invincibility potions to protect you when you otherwise should die.
2. People who over-expand and then throw up a flag should frequently be attacked. Just because you put up a flag does not mean that you can foolishly over-expand and leave little stacks lying about and expect to keep them. Again, a flag is not a magic invincibility potion that protects you from attack - it's just there to help the game end faster. You'll often see people over expand recklessly throw up a flag and have it 'respected' and thus earning a position higher than they should have gotten. Good strategy on their part if they think they can get away with it, but poor form on the other players' part to let them do so. Keep in mind that that over-expanding player is taking dominance points away from the other players when they do this as well; frequently from the person who is in the best position to take their smaller stacks.
3. An early flag is essentially a truce offer. If a player verbally flags in round two, it's a safe assumption that those two players are effectively truced and will not be hindering each other's play. The other players on the board need to actively counter this or will almost always end up losing to these two players. This is not very different from being observant and countering two players who says things like "I'm cool" or "how about we be friendly." If you don't fight this behavior when possible, those players will win. You will see some people that ignore or even purposefully attack early verbal flags. This is a reasonable solution to this problem. They're probably flagging early because they are weak, so take the land and dominance points if you are in a position to do so.
In review:
Flagging Rule #1 - Flagging to someone does not mean they cannot and often should not attack you.
Flagging Rule #2 - Players who recklessly over-expand and then flag for defense should often be attacked.
Flagging Rule #3 - An early verbal flag is often an effective truce offer.
I will state the most important part again: flagging was only introduced to help the game end faster. Your flag DOES NOT prevent you from being attacked - it is not what it was designed to do.
The initial flagging system was introduced solely as a way to help the game end faster. It was a simple checkbox, not related to place. When all players other than the one in first checked this box the game would end and each player would receive place based on their current position.
Incidentally, this system led to 'ninja flagging,' where a player would wait for everyone else to have their flag up and then quickly over-expand and then flag themselves, ending the game. They would then finish much higher than they should have otherwise. This led to some fun games as people would watch and try to respond, but it also cause some frustration. Anyone who uses 'ninja flagging' in regards to the current system is using the term incorrectly.
I bring this up because the current flagging system was introduced specifically to address the ninja flagging 'problem.' Some players that play in both systems find the old system preferable, some do not. To each their own; I don't think Ryan will be changing it back anytime soon.
The issue we have now is that flags are grossly misunderstood. You see people all the time expecting that when their flag is up they will not be attacked and thus they feel you did not "honor" or "respect" their flag if you attack them. This completely erroneous assumption has lead to a great deal of complaining, frustration, and negative review leaving.
Here are the flagging facts:
1. If you flag to someone, they have the complete right to still attack you, and often should. There is nothing 'dishonorable' about it. They may need to expand to fight for a higher position and your flag should not stop them from expanding to do so. They may want to earn more dom points - it is their right to do so as they have clearly earned a stronger position. Flags are ONLY there to help the game end faster; they are not magic invincibility potions to protect you when you otherwise should die.
2. People who over-expand and then throw up a flag should frequently be attacked. Just because you put up a flag does not mean that you can foolishly over-expand and leave little stacks lying about and expect to keep them. Again, a flag is not a magic invincibility potion that protects you from attack - it's just there to help the game end faster. You'll often see people over expand recklessly throw up a flag and have it 'respected' and thus earning a position higher than they should have gotten. Good strategy on their part if they think they can get away with it, but poor form on the other players' part to let them do so. Keep in mind that that over-expanding player is taking dominance points away from the other players when they do this as well; frequently from the person who is in the best position to take their smaller stacks.
3. An early flag is essentially a truce offer. If a player verbally flags in round two, it's a safe assumption that those two players are effectively truced and will not be hindering each other's play. The other players on the board need to actively counter this or will almost always end up losing to these two players. This is not very different from being observant and countering two players who says things like "I'm cool" or "how about we be friendly." If you don't fight this behavior when possible, those players will win. You will see some people that ignore or even purposefully attack early verbal flags. This is a reasonable solution to this problem. They're probably flagging early because they are weak, so take the land and dominance points if you are in a position to do so.
In review:
Flagging Rule #1 - Flagging to someone does not mean they cannot and often should not attack you.
Flagging Rule #2 - Players who recklessly over-expand and then flag for defense should often be attacked.
Flagging Rule #3 - An early verbal flag is often an effective truce offer.
I will state the most important part again: flagging was only introduced to help the game end faster. Your flag DOES NOT prevent you from being attacked - it is not what it was designed to do.
Who Will Win wrote
at 5:07 PM, Thursday November 24, 2011 EST noob rules
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Raimundas wrote
at 2:28 PM, Wednesday December 7, 2011 EST It ruined the game. There is no way to make truce with a player, his style or actions you like. Instead of playing you only... help the game end faster.
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HAL_9000 wrote
at 2:58 PM, Sunday June 3, 2012 EDT Right on, this should be a mandatory Terms of Service "I accept" screen right up front. This would make it all so much more enjoyable, KDice could continue on as the great game it is. However, I am a maniacal, fascist computer and you probably shouldn't listen to me.
P.S. There are notable exceptions in tournament play. Long-term strategy, politics, pt. system, and PR play a larger role. This is a whole different subject. |
9steele9 wrote
at 7:17 PM, Sunday June 17, 2012 EDT I think that if a player verbally accepts a flag and then attacks that should be considered dishonorable. If he says "no" or just nothing at all, he can do whatever the hell he wants.
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hobgob wrote
at 8:03 PM, Friday July 13, 2012 EDT thats just ur opinion vermy. the rest of us disagree.
the REAL guide to flaggin: 1 hobgobs flag u, u accept 2 hobgobs flag u, u dont farm 3 hobgobs is the kewlest player on kdice, so flag as soon as reasonably possible without gettin him a 5v2 counter. 4 dont fk with the hobgobs peace |
hobgob wrote
at 8:04 PM, Friday July 13, 2012 EDT and gimme a medal for correctin u vermy
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Nordic wrote
at 2:56 AM, Thursday August 30, 2012 EDT Wow, as much as people flag these days, I would of NEVER knew about this. I completely agree with it yet I NEVER see this practiced. Ridiculous how low people have gotten. The game would be so much better and less frustrating with these rules.
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Beer Me! wrote
at 1:29 AM, Tuesday October 23, 2012 EDT "1. If you flag to someone, they have the complete right to still attack you, and often should. There is nothing 'dishonorable' about it. They may need to expand to fight for a higher position and your flag should not stop them from expanding to do so. They may want to earn more dom points - it is their right to do so as they have clearly earned a stronger position. Flags are ONLY there to help the game end faster; they are not magic invincibility potions to protect you when you otherwise should die."
I don't agree with #1 (even if the flags were not intended to be use that way). If you want to go back in the day (kdice's beginning) truces were the common thing to say in the chat room, not flag. Flagging encouraged not to make alliances as much, and truces in all honesty became almost dishonorable in its nature after the flagging system took affect. I've been playing kdice for many years (if that holds some weight) and if a player attacks somebody that flags them, it is seen as dishonorable (as you can see in the reviews) even if the "rules" say otherwise. If 90% of players see flagstabbing as a bad thing, this is the new fact of kdice. It doesn't mean that 90% are wrong. Does it? Now yes, if you're playing a 500 level map or higher, and you want to get dom because you care about points... that makes sense. Believe it or not, the reason I play this game and the reason why I lasted here so long is that I don't care about points and just play for the fun of it. If you don't care about points, the game becomes much more enjoyable. I still love tourneys, and the respect in tourneys. Maybe that's why I don't play that much "normal" games. But I believe kdice has ethics, morals, and great players. Take this with a grain of salt. Just wanted to give you my point of view. Cheers. |
Vermont wrote
at 4:49 PM, Tuesday October 23, 2012 EDT Appreciate the feedback. There are definitely some differences between games with and without dom.
Logically, 90% of the people can indeed be wrong. Most used to think the world was flat, for example. I do understand your point, though, and you're not the only one that feels that way. However, I would add that as there are so many negative reviews about this topic, it means that there isn't clear consensus on the matter. My post was help to clarify the roots, origins, etc.. Hopefully it's helped a little bit. Wow, bad grammar there. Too lazy to fix, though ;) |
AletheiaAgape wrote
at 10:43 AM, Thursday November 15, 2012 EST Vermont,
Can you create a new "first" post that integrates the discussion so far? It's hard to read all of the comments to see where the discussion ended. Also, in non-dom tables, flag-stabbing is clearly considered wrong. I can totally see how dom tables would play differently, however. |