Forum
Common misconceptions about the current flagging system.
Posted By: Vermont at 9:20 AM, Wednesday November 19, 2014 EST
I've noticed that a good deal of the frustration with the game and with other players is consistently due to misunderstandings of the flagging system. This becomes pretty evident when you take a look at players' review pages and a large majority of the negative, and even positive comments, deal with flagging.
The initial flagging system was introduced solely as a way to help the game end faster. It was a simple checkbox, not related to place. When all players other than the one in first checked this box the game would end and each player would receive place based on their current position.
Incidentally, this system led to 'ninja flagging,' where a player would wait for everyone else to have their flag up and then quickly over-expand and then flag themselves, ending the game. They would then finish much higher than they should have otherwise. This led to some fun games as people would watch and try to respond, but it also cause some frustration. Anyone who uses 'ninja flagging' in regards to the current system is using the term incorrectly.
I bring this up because the current flagging system was introduced specifically to address the ninja flagging 'problem.' Some players that play in both systems find the old system preferable, some do not. To each their own; I don't think Ryan will be changing it back anytime soon.
The issue we have now is that flags are grossly misunderstood. You see people all the time expecting that when their flag is up they will not be attacked and thus they feel you did not "honor" or "respect" their flag if you attack them. This completely erroneous assumption has lead to a great deal of complaining, frustration, and negative review leaving.
Here are the flagging facts:
1. If you flag to someone, they have the complete right to still attack you, and often should. There is nothing 'dishonorable' about it. They may need to expand to fight for a higher position and your flag should not stop them from expanding to do so. They may want to earn more dom points - it is their right to do so as they have clearly earned a stronger position. Flags are ONLY there to help the game end faster; they are not magic invincibility potions to protect you when you otherwise should die.
2. People who over-expand and then throw up a flag should frequently be attacked. Just because you put up a flag does not mean that you can foolishly over-expand and leave little stacks lying about and expect to keep them. Again, a flag is not a magic invincibility potion that protects you from attack - it's just there to help the game end faster. You'll often see people over expand recklessly throw up a flag and have it 'respected' and thus earning a position higher than they should have gotten. Good strategy on their part if they think they can get away with it, but poor form on the other players' part to let them do so. Keep in mind that that over-expanding player is taking dominance points away from the other players when they do this as well; frequently from the person who is in the best position to take their smaller stacks.
3. An early flag is essentially a truce offer. If a player verbally flags in round two, it's a safe assumption that those two players are effectively truced and will not be hindering each other's play. The other players on the board need to actively counter this or will almost always end up losing to these two players. This is not very different from being observant and countering two players who says things like "I'm cool" or "how about we be friendly." If you don't fight this behavior when possible, those players will win. You will see some people that ignore or even purposefully attack early verbal flags. This is a reasonable solution to this problem. They're probably flagging early because they are weak, so take the land and dominance points if you are in a position to do so.
In review:
Flagging Rule #1 - Flagging to someone does not mean they cannot and often should not attack you.
Flagging Rule #2 - Players who recklessly over-expand and then flag for defense should often be attacked.
Flagging Rule #3 - An early verbal flag is often an effective truce offer.
I will state the most important part again: flagging was only introduced to help the game end faster. Your flag DOES NOT prevent you from being attacked - it is not what it was designed to do.
The initial flagging system was introduced solely as a way to help the game end faster. It was a simple checkbox, not related to place. When all players other than the one in first checked this box the game would end and each player would receive place based on their current position.
Incidentally, this system led to 'ninja flagging,' where a player would wait for everyone else to have their flag up and then quickly over-expand and then flag themselves, ending the game. They would then finish much higher than they should have otherwise. This led to some fun games as people would watch and try to respond, but it also cause some frustration. Anyone who uses 'ninja flagging' in regards to the current system is using the term incorrectly.
I bring this up because the current flagging system was introduced specifically to address the ninja flagging 'problem.' Some players that play in both systems find the old system preferable, some do not. To each their own; I don't think Ryan will be changing it back anytime soon.
The issue we have now is that flags are grossly misunderstood. You see people all the time expecting that when their flag is up they will not be attacked and thus they feel you did not "honor" or "respect" their flag if you attack them. This completely erroneous assumption has lead to a great deal of complaining, frustration, and negative review leaving.
Here are the flagging facts:
1. If you flag to someone, they have the complete right to still attack you, and often should. There is nothing 'dishonorable' about it. They may need to expand to fight for a higher position and your flag should not stop them from expanding to do so. They may want to earn more dom points - it is their right to do so as they have clearly earned a stronger position. Flags are ONLY there to help the game end faster; they are not magic invincibility potions to protect you when you otherwise should die.
2. People who over-expand and then throw up a flag should frequently be attacked. Just because you put up a flag does not mean that you can foolishly over-expand and leave little stacks lying about and expect to keep them. Again, a flag is not a magic invincibility potion that protects you from attack - it's just there to help the game end faster. You'll often see people over expand recklessly throw up a flag and have it 'respected' and thus earning a position higher than they should have gotten. Good strategy on their part if they think they can get away with it, but poor form on the other players' part to let them do so. Keep in mind that that over-expanding player is taking dominance points away from the other players when they do this as well; frequently from the person who is in the best position to take their smaller stacks.
3. An early flag is essentially a truce offer. If a player verbally flags in round two, it's a safe assumption that those two players are effectively truced and will not be hindering each other's play. The other players on the board need to actively counter this or will almost always end up losing to these two players. This is not very different from being observant and countering two players who says things like "I'm cool" or "how about we be friendly." If you don't fight this behavior when possible, those players will win. You will see some people that ignore or even purposefully attack early verbal flags. This is a reasonable solution to this problem. They're probably flagging early because they are weak, so take the land and dominance points if you are in a position to do so.
In review:
Flagging Rule #1 - Flagging to someone does not mean they cannot and often should not attack you.
Flagging Rule #2 - Players who recklessly over-expand and then flag for defense should often be attacked.
Flagging Rule #3 - An early verbal flag is often an effective truce offer.
I will state the most important part again: flagging was only introduced to help the game end faster. Your flag DOES NOT prevent you from being attacked - it is not what it was designed to do.
Vermont wrote
at 11:10 PM, Tuesday February 2, 2010 EST Awesome. I'm a self-educated hack, barring one undergrad class. I do find it fascinating, though.
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TheBetterYodel wrote
at 2:29 AM, Wednesday February 10, 2010 EST I have no idea verms. I've taken a few classes + read as much as I can on the subject. Besides that....You are right that people would have understood it less. HOWEVER. I think an expansion of the rules + maybe a FAIR PLAY GUIDELINES (which wouldn't be manditory) might help the game have a bit of a smoother run. Right now the game is so hate filled that I have to do yoga to get over the gayness of it all.
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Vermont wrote
at 7:50 AM, Wednesday February 10, 2010 EST "...I have to do yoga to get over the gayness of it all."
I think that's about the funniest thing you've ever said. (Or not. But it almost made me chuckle.) Yodel, the real problem is that even if I were to make a thread on that, most players don't think any higher of my opinion than anyone else's. The thread would just spurn more yoga-inducing hate and disagreement. I'm not sure what could actually be accomplished unless it came from Ryan. |
cyhawk wrote
at 7:41 AM, Sunday February 14, 2010 EST This is an interesting subject and I'm not sure it can ever be resolved. It would make sense if it were a staple of human society that we tend to form unwritten rules that decrease fairness in favor of increasing the safety of the group. This of course leads to clashes between those who look at the game as a social experience and those who look for a challenge.
I found this news article and the linked study very relevant and fascinating: http://kotaku.com/5308780/college-professor-trolls-for-science-finds-people-hate-him |
Retne wrote
at 6:54 PM, Monday February 15, 2010 EST Something I'd suggest, an idea borrowed from the kdice Wiki, is that people need to be encouraged to do is respond to vflags.
That would help further with the situation Monte outlined. So, if a vflag isn't a vflag until it's accepted, meaning one player can't screw up another's game simply by offering the vflag. |
Retard Strong wrote
at 11:43 AM, Wednesday February 24, 2010 EST Real flag > verbal flag
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flughund wrote
at 3:56 AM, Tuesday March 2, 2010 EST Thx Vermont!
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Carlos_Mackerel wrote
at 3:00 PM, Monday March 8, 2010 EST newbie says: thanks, that cleared it up a lot.
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moulue wrote
at 3:47 AM, Thursday March 25, 2010 EDT Thanks for your input which I have only come to read lately - It makes sense and more game fun, because everything will stay for unpredictable and open then with better flux. On the other hand, it seems quite opposed to common practice...
When trying to appl yyour thoughts and play accordingly, I ran into quite some hostility even amongst players that have been around for very much longer than myself. They mostly figured I should respect another player`S late achievement (lucky rolls) making him 2nd place accessible yet in a vulnerable and exposed way (rule#2) whereas before he had been struggling even just to survive rather than to respect another player`s loyalty - who flagged to me early in the game whereas he could have also easily tried to fight me.. (it`s actually what you call rule #3, equivalent to truce offer) ... The outcome is, that other players had not interfered in the beginning like you suggest yet did not understand why I would not accept that late flag - one of them even started attacking me despite having flagged to me and being accepted at an earlier stage. |
carnivorous wrote
at 12:40 AM, Sunday April 4, 2010 EDT Very nice. Thank you.
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