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My thoughts about improving the kDice experience.
Vermont wrote
at 4:59 PM, Monday July 28, 2008 EDT
I was originally writing this in response to Ryan's advisor blog posting, but I know he wanted to hear about ideas for transforming kdice for the future in a dramtic way, and I realized that many of the ideas and concepts below are tied directly to the current experience and several are minor (but, I feel, important) improvements. Rather than clutter that up I thought a new thread might be better.


Ryan,

I think you could cull many ideas by looking at what is your biggest competitor in certain aspects: http://www.conquerclub.com/

Here are some of the key things (in no particular order) I see when I look at that website that you could incorporate here to improve the experience:

1) A real forum.
I'm not sure why you are choosing to code one from scratch when there are many free, fully-featured forums available for use. I'm sure you'd rather spend your time improving game play than reading requests for things as simple as a next button at the bottom of the page. For example, improving to a normal forum would allow you have various categories for posts, so game strategy discussions and off-game discussions aren't right next to each other. Also included, right at the top, are forum guidelines, so people know right away what is acceptable and what is not:
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/index.php

2) Game variation.
Let people play in different types of games. Over there, you can create many different types of victory conditions, numbers of players, teams, fog of war, etc. One simple help page could easily define these attributes so new users would not have difficulty understanding.
http://www.conquerclub.com/public.php?mode=instructions3

3) Medals.
Several other people have already brought this idea up. Have medals people can earn based on several criteria, such as:
-Number of victories
-Number of unique opponents defeated
-X wins on X different maps
There are lots of interesting options here, and would give people something to shoot for outside of just points.
You can see a list of their medals here:
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/medals.php

4) Simple accessibility.
Give players the option to, instead of seeing 7 dice, see '7R' or '7B' so the color-blind red player can tell what everyone has.

5) Membership.
On conquerclub, being a member lets you play in more games than a non-member, as well as play in speed games and tournaments. Instead of just points, members are allowed to more fully enjoy the game they like to play. While those perks don't directly translate to kdice, the concept of letting paying members more fully enjoy the game does.

6) Clear rules.
They have clear rules to go by. They have two primary rules, which would solve most of the problems on kdice if rigorously enforced:
Rule #1: No multiple accounts
Rule #2: No secret diplomacy
They have a clear process for reporting suspected violations and handling said violations when discovered.
http://www.conquerclub.com/public.php?mode=rules

7) Map Creation. At conquerclub, users collaborate on and create unique, interesting maps. They are then rewarded for doing so. It's just one more way to get your user-base involved in the game, to gain more paying members, and to make game play more interesting.

8) Winner take all.
Most of the questions you see from players today are about how the rather confusing flagging system works. Most of the problems people experience deal with and complain about are regarding unspoken alliances. Both of these go away if the winner gets all the points. And it shouldn't matter how _much_ they win by (domination) but simply that they eliminated all their competition. I know you've been resistant to that idea for kdice, which is fine since it's your baby, but it works exceptionally well for conquerclub. Did I mention this would also completely eliminate the need for farming?

9) Rating system
After each game, you can leave a rating (1-5) for each player in the game in a few different areas, such as gamesmanship, fair play, and attitude. Results don't show up until after a certain amount of time, and then revealed simultaneously and can't be changed until they play together again. (So no revenge-rating after receiving a bad one!) You display a simple average (4.2) next to a person's name at the table.

This is a more tangible, consistent way to rate opponents. It also gives people that don't respect the current review system (and feel the need to post every perceived violation in the only forum area we have) a straightforward way to rate someone. If they still post something, then a mod bumps their post to the Cheating & Abuse section of the forum (our new, fully functional forum, of course) and it keeps the strategy sections free of off-topic clutter.
http://www.conquerclub.com/public.php?mode=instructions5

THAT BEING SAID...
Kdice has a significant advantage in two key areas. It plays far more quickly on average and is more enjoyable socially. Quiet games at conquerclub are common, whereas games with almost no chat on kdice are rarely seen, and primarily only at the lower tables. While the speed games members get to play there help, a game of kdice still tends to be much quicker, and a far more engrossing experience.

I've spent many a game and hour here and enjoyed a lot of fun games. I'm on a bit of a self-imposed hiatus from kdice at the moment, but that doesn't mean I don't care for the future of the game. Ryan, please take all these suggestions in the constructive manner I hope I have conveyed them in.

Regards to all. Have fun!

Replies 1 - 10 of 13 Next › Last »
gruntie wrote
at 5:57 PM, Monday July 28, 2008 EDT
great post
Cal Ripken wrote
at 11:26 PM, Monday July 28, 2008 EDT
Verm, I got like 6 words into your post. Bravo on those 6!!
Differential X wrote
at 11:33 PM, Monday July 28, 2008 EDT
A++ thread
lesplaydices wrote
at 11:34 PM, Monday July 28, 2008 EDT
Anyone who says they actually read all this is LYING.
Rowdyazell wrote
at 12:15 AM, Tuesday July 29, 2008 EDT
I read every word (lie)
AlphaMeridian wrote
at 1:47 AM, Tuesday July 29, 2008 EDT
Agree w/ the forum; I'm much more of a fan of the common forum styles which are readily available. Not sure if ryan keeps his own for db integration though; might be a lot of work in migrating that he might not want to do.

Overall, I'm not a fan of the "make kdice look like conquer club" tone - there are some not so good things that conquer club does which I'm totally not a fan of. For example, even though I'm generally anti-pga, I'm REALLY not a fan of how they root it out - lots of shit w/ kdice LOOKS like a PGA but actually isn't. Having to defend oneself against a PGA accusation would get really tiring here, considering the sheer number of games played.

Also, I'm not sure what you would *do* with a rating system here? Mark down who does and doesn't respect flags? Because if that's all you need I might as well post "AlphaMeridian will generally not respect your flag" on my own public notes section, because it's true. But toying around with some kind of numerical rating doesn't say much. What does a 5 rating mean? what does a 1 rating mean? Do you see where I'm coming from here? The number doesn't mean anything.
kam|k2 wrote
at 3:14 AM, Tuesday July 29, 2008 EDT
1* definetly YES!
2* we had that in ryans topic, like teamup, or 1v1, or kill the king - might be fun.
3* GOOD IDEA!
4* dont care, but still a good one
5* not a good one, you gonna get forced to buy membership, instead of getting fresh fishes.
6* Rule #1: No multiple accounts
> why that? i love to play sometimes for nothing, so i regained my old account kam|k to play on 0-tables just 4 fun. giving newbs some help and i can try new things. but yeah, there should be a rule about account-abusing.
7* ... dont care
8* so, 1st gets everything, and the other places? all nothing, or all a bit minus like yet?
9* ... dont care

just for discussion Verm.


My own opinion should be clear:
I rly like the Ideas 1-3, which all could improve social networking, communication, fun, and a more variant gameplay.

mfg
me
Rowdyazell wrote
at 9:35 AM, Tuesday July 29, 2008 EDT
Ok I actually read it now (for real)

Number 1 is a must have
MadHat_Sam wrote
at 9:42 AM, Tuesday July 29, 2008 EDT
The best ideas are always the ones that you steal from someone else and improve on.

I think a real forum is needed, and this has been stated so many times before.

The idea of a rating system for players is great.

I think winner take all should be looked at in some form. I think having two scores could work for this, one elo that goes up and down based on performance in game, and then mass rhombi that would only be gained from wins, maybe very, very small and almost equal gains for 2nd-4th. You could reset the rhombi monthly but keep the elo score going as more of a easy to track carrer score.
Ryan wrote
at 10:32 AM, Tuesday July 29, 2008 EDT
There's definitely some good ideas on that site. I noticed they have a contributor badge too. Is this just a coincidence or is there some idea sharing going on?

I think I should respond about the forum in particular. Here are the reasons it's custom:

1. Performance. Having full control over the code means I know where it's performance weaknesses and strengths are. It can sit in the same system as the rest of the site and can share positive performance architecture like caching.

2. Integration. I could probably work with a third part forum to integrate the accounts. But it's still a lot of work. You want to be able to link to player profiles, ban players, integrate posts with profiles (maybe).

3. Customization. I use to have stats as the footer for each post (they're gone because I cache the forum a lot more now and the stats would be outdated - but now that i think about it i could at least have the career stat). Specialty forums like strategy, reviews, ideas, etc.

4. Code reuse. I can reuse the code for forums elsewhere (in the customization examples above), in the blog, profile comments, etc. If I start to have pages for games or maps they can have their own comment section.

5. Consistent Look. I want a consistent look and feel across the site. If I start integrating a lot of third party front ends things would start to look fragmented.

Of course the drawback to all of this is that it's not as feature complete as other forums. But I would rather have all the pluses above than a fully complete forum. Especially because the forum on this site is secondary to the actual game.

Another argument I could use is look at most big websites (myspace, flickr, facebook, etc). They all have custom forums and I think their reasons are probably the same as mine.
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